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thepyro222
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thepyro222
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Do you consider babies innocents in all this?

SpazAttackerz
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SpazAttackerz
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Free will, the power God gave us to spread his word, or deny it. In a perfect world there would be no need to choose religions and debate against who was right, but God allowed it to be so to test our faith. God knows that many will burn in Hell, but the infinite pain comes from our own actions. That is why I am here, to try and convince some of you that there is a way better place than Hell.

MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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That is why I am here, to try and convince some of you that there is a way better place than Hell.


You want to convince us? Tell your God to pony up the empirical data. Seriously, that's all he has to do. Pretty simple for an all powerful creator deity, right? Until then, though, you are wasting your breath and saying the same things everyone else has said so it's really not relevant.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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They aren't all at the same time all over the world. Most of them are hundreds of years apart.
Well, I said "if".
One may believe whatever they like, but the simple fact remains that no one knows and anyone who claims to is either delusional or is a liar.
You disregard personal evidence that can be as strong as Gloria Polo's, and even stronger. You may or may not believe this, but you can't call such a person a liar without proving them wrong.
Also, there was a nice phrase in Diablo 1, "Her grandmother is quite ill, and suffers from delusions. She claims that they are visions, but I have no proof of that one way or the other.", said Pepin the local healer. So you can't plain call a person being delusional without enough proof.
And why is that you ask? Because they contain observed, tested, verified, and proven information.
(trolling mode on) There's an anecdote: "There are three degrees of lies: a lie, a profound lie, statistics." Statistics can be perverted to whatever needs one pursues, this is applied to say swine flu pandemic, bird flu and similar stuff, also AIDS cases are being involved - given HPV infection scale, should people ever bother with AIDS? (trolling mode off)

Okay, I leave you be with you disregarding the Bible. This discussion ends with the chessboard break.
And what if you are wrong?
I have met God in this life, in a manner of personal spiritual contact (religious term "touch of God's grace&quot, so I can't be wrong anymore - at least in that sphere of awareness that's accessible for me.
Then explain to why faithful catholics, altar boys no less, got ***** by the messengers of his word? Are you telling me child rapists get into heaven while people like Gandhi are hell bound?
If you remain in the state of sin, when it's displayed to you that it's a sin, you go to Hell. If one will repent his sins deep in his heart and cry for them (not required to be done in public), he will be pardoned and avoid Hell. Yes, even child rapists can reach Heaven if they will turn away from evil ways. Reference: Jeremiah 31:34 and context.
A child, who has committed no sin, is given cancer by a god, to punish him for a crime he did not commit, is not at fault.
Jn 9:3 as a reply. You have probably failed reading the Bible in the first case. (And BTW I know enough of higher maths, if you want to talk maths, come to my profile)
Tell your God to pony up the empirical data. Seriously, that's all he has to do.
He will, when you die. And when I die, too. Scare tactics, you say? No need to, you either die for no reason, or live in eternity for God's love.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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You disregard personal evidence that can be as strong as Gloria Polo's, and even stronger. You may or may not believe this, but you can't call such a person a liar without proving them wrong.
Also, there was a nice phrase in Diablo 1, "Her grandmother is quite ill, and suffers from delusions. She claims that they are visions, but I have no proof of that one way or the other.", said Pepin the local healer. So you can't plain call a person being delusional without enough proof.

Interesting and eloquent explanation of why personal experience is largely dismissed in science. < This video pretty much explains why claims like the one you make are simply dismissed until they provide empirical data.

Okay, I leave you be with you disregarding the Bible. This discussion ends with the chessboard break.


I will only dismiss the Bible until such time as it can be tested, measured, and/or verified in some fashion which demonstrates its validity. Until such time you might as well not bother citing it in support of your claims.

I have met God in this life, in a manner of personal spiritual contact (religious term "touch of God's grace&quot, so I can't be wrong anymore - at least in that sphere of awareness that's accessible for me.


Again, watch the video I linked to for you. It's rather enlightening.

If you remain in the state of sin, when it's displayed to you that it's a sin, you go to Hell. If one will repent his sins deep in his heart and cry for them (not required to be done in public), he will be pardoned and avoid Hell. Yes, even child rapists can reach Heaven if they will turn away from evil ways. Reference: Jeremiah 31:34 and context.


Jn 9:3 as a reply. You have probably failed reading the Bible in the first case. (And BTW I know enough of higher maths, if you want to talk maths, come to my profile)


Read my reply regarding my dismissal of the Bible as support of your position.

He will, when you die. And when I die, too. Scare tactics, you say? No need to, you either die for no reason, or live in eternity for God's love.


Then if he can't do anything so simple as demonstrate his existence during my lifetime then he's not worth my bother.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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I said that a while ago, but you're taking it out of context. I said it's historical because it recorded probable events. I never said it was accurately depicting those events.


Yes because a flat earth is extremely probable and so is things like the earth being 4000 years old
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Then if he can't do anything so simple as demonstrate his existence during my lifetime then he's not worth my bother.
He can, He doesn't want to, it seems. Okay, I leave you be.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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He can, He doesn't want to, it seems. Okay, I leave you be.


I can save my child from a very drawn out and painful death, but I don't want to. But I love him and I don't want him to suffer. Do you NOT see a contradiction here?

You claim your God knows everything and can do anything, including what it would take to make everyone convert to worshiping him. You claim that said God doesn't want anyone to suffer. And the only way for that to happen is for everyone to worship him. But he not only created the very conditions by which we suffer, in this life and your proposed afterlife, but that he is unwilling to do what it takes to keep everyone from this horrible fate.

Seriously, either the attributes given to this deity are not true, or he is a seriously sick and demented individual, arguably one of the most evil and cruel beings ever to have been imagined.
Latchem
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Latchem
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Seriously, either the attributes given to this deity are not true, or he is a seriously sick and demented individual, arguably one of the most evil and cruel beings ever to have been imagined.
Yeah, If God knows EVERYTHING then he knew that in giving Adam and Eve free will that they would get exiled... Basically, although you have free will God knows exactly what you'll do with it and wont stop you. Why do I want free will if I could be a mindless zombie and knowing no better but the love of being with God? And if God loves me more than I could ever possibly love someone, then why does he send me to Hell, a place where you can get no worse? God knows everything, is all powerful and does nothing to help me, why? Yeah I know it's a rant, but now can you see why people like me can't be converted?
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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Actually, many other cultures and religions have stories of a world flood. All the people and boats and such vary, but still the same basic story.


And? they all have Gods, does this mean gods must exist.
Theists cannot prove that god exists, atheists also cannot prove that god does not exist.


Yes but since the existence of a god is very unlikely because there is nothing that would not have happened if there was no god so for a god to exist there must be proof but there doesn't need to be to rpove him to not exist since that is far more likely.
Saying they are all correct would be like one person describing a crook as a short fat balding white man, while another describes the same crook as a tall muscular black man with an afro and saying they both are right.

At least they both say there was a crook.


I think the analogy is slightly wrong here. Image someone lying on the road with a bullet hole in their head with a gun lying on the ground with no fingerprints on it. There are 2 men next to her who are both wearing gloves and one says a tall black guy with an afro did it and the other says a short, fat, balding, white guy did it. They both say there was a crook but there doesn't have to be a crook
As far as I can see, the position of most atheists with whom I was able to speak is "No, there is no God at all" without any "don't know"s. The position of many believers is "I believe, and I know, but I don't know enough to prove God to you". I can't say about "most" believers, as they vary by religion, and some will just kill me outright should I speak.


No the actual position is that I believe there is no God because it is SO unlikely
Is this implying that there is no reason to believe in something simply because we do not have 100% evidence of being true?


No but have 0.000...01% evidence to believe in them isn't a good enough reason to believe in them. There are some theories things like this could apply to but not God.
Saying God exists, the Bible would be true, correct? If you took your time to read the Bible God grants us an eternal life in Heaven if we follow the path of Jesus. Allowing us to be alive right now, and the given power of free will are things that God permitted us. I would call this good, not evil. He had the choice to make us mindless drones that can only follow him, which would be evil, but there are plenty of people who just don't care about God.


But god surely must be corrupt with all his power since he doesn't do anything to help people on earth. He has the power to do it but he doesn't so why should we worship him if he doesn't do anything for us. And almost all christians say god exists but don't believe everything in the bible so why do the bits about heaven have to be true.
God entitled the world to be perfect, in which indeed failed because of the man in which he created. Cancer, abuse, evil leaders, all in which could have been done without if man had not decieved God.


God can see the future, he knows EVERYTHING, and he made the universe. Since he was the only one there and he knew the consequences of his actions everything that happens is his fault. And you can't deceive someone who can see the future anyway.
This means I can say the same about any book of yours, regardless its contents. This discussion ends with a stalemate.


Yes because as everyone knows a book of fairy tales is just as likely as a book of science which has all been proven or a book of maths that any person who can do maths would agree is all right.
True, in a way, there was nothing of harm when God created the world. God warned of the evil that would come from disobeying him. It would be as hating your parents because they told you not to steal from the cookie jar, and if you did you would get punished, then you do steal from the cookie jar and you whine, saying how evil they were. This would be humans fault.


Yes because as everyone knows parents are omniscient and know exactly what we are going to do all the time. If you look closely you may see the difference between your parents and god. And even if there was nothing evil in the world when God made it he must've known that evil would come about because of the way he made things so he did make it, he just made it come about a bit later. And anyway this is all backed up by your bible and shows exactly what god did when he made the world.
Free will, the power God gave us to spread his word, or deny it. In a perfect world there would be no need to choose religions and debate against who was right, but God allowed it to be so to test our faith. God knows that many will burn in Hell, but the infinite pain comes from our own actions. That is why I am here, to try and convince some of you that there is a way better place than Hell.


But if Gods word is true what is the point of giving us the power to deny it. And just appearing to us and telling us seems a lot more believable compared to a guy on a forum who has no proof. Anyway God has the power to easily prove his existence, why doesn't he do it since it'd save so many people from hell.
(trolling mode on) There's an anecdote: "There are three degrees of lies: a lie, a profound lie, statistics." Statistics can be perverted to whatever needs one pursues, this is applied to say swine flu pandemic, bird flu and similar stuff, also AIDS cases are being involved - given HPV infection scale, should people ever bother with AIDS? (trolling mode off)


No, statistics are the truth. If they are changed to be fake they aren't statistics just lies. Also did you knoow that 61.4384% o all statistics are made up on the spot.
If you remain in the state of sin, when it's displayed to you that it's a sin, you go to Hell. If one will repent his sins deep in his heart and cry for them (not required to be done in public), he will be pardoned and avoid Hell. Yes, even child rapists can reach Heaven if they will turn away from evil ways. Reference: Jeremiah 31:34 and context.


So sinless atheists or people of another religion go to hell but child rapists go to heaven if they pretend to repent.
Yeah, If God knows EVERYTHING then he knew that in giving Adam and Eve free will that they would get exiled... Basically, although you have free will God knows exactly what you'll do with it and wont stop you. Why do I want free will if I could be a mindless zombie and knowing no better but the love of being with God? And if God loves me more than I could ever possibly love someone, then why does he send me to Hell, a place where you can get no worse? God knows everything, is all powerful and does nothing to help me, why? Yeah I know it's a rant, but now can you see why people like me can't be converted?


I shall answer you with this:

How do you know that if you were a mindless zombie you wouldn't make exactly the same choices that you do now? And anyway we could just be mindless zombies who think we have free will. And you'd have the love of God. How is free will better than that.

Of course there could be no god at all but lets not concern ourselves with things like that which everyone knows aren't true and completely invalidate religion. They aren't important.


An excerpt from any truthful creationists mind.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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You claim your God knows everything and can do anything, including what it would take to make everyone convert to worshiping him. You claim that said God doesn't want anyone to suffer. And the only way for that to happen is for everyone to worship him. But he not only created the very conditions by which we suffer, in this life and your proposed afterlife, but that he is unwilling to do what it takes to keep everyone from this horrible fate.


MrWalker FTW

So sinless atheists or people of another religion go to hell but child rapists go to heaven if they pretend to repent.


I think it's suppose to be genuine, but still that's messed up.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Yes but since the existence of a god is very unlikely
Do estimate the probability. I haven't heard anything but "unlikely" from anyone of you.
No, statistics are the truth. If they are changed to be fake they aren't statistics just lies.
Even unfaked statistics can be filtered with enough care to show only what's needed. Say, out of all abortions, 54% used any method of contraception, be it pill, condom, IUD or else, and only 2% have used NFP methods. This might mean two things - one being only about 2% of women use NFP of any kind, and the other being NFP-users are 25 times less voluntary at performing an abortion. If one would prepare statistics carefully, he can make any conclusion out of it, even the one that's contrary to used statistics if observed as a whole. And such research can even be scientifically true!
So sinless atheists or people of another religion go to hell but child rapists go to heaven if they pretend to repent.
Pretend to who? One can convince a human, but can't convince God if in fact he didn't. If they truly repent, yes they can avoid Hell. Also, if you so devoutly defend your position that Christian God is false, and at your end your beliefs will appear false, you will fall hardly. Lk 6:47-49. I'm not stating, however, that you will go to Hell, or any other person. God is merciful, and He can save anyone whom He wishes, so a "sinless atheist" may also receive salvation.
Also did you knoow that 61.4384% o all statistics are made up on the spot.
Including this one. Yes, statistics require people that submit their state or events that happen to be of any value.
You claim your God knows everything and can do anything, including what it would take to make everyone convert to worshiping him. You claim that said God doesn't want anyone to suffer. And the only way for that to happen is for everyone to worship him. But he not only created the very conditions by which we suffer, in this life and your proposed afterlife, but that he is unwilling to do what it takes to keep everyone from this horrible fate.
He wants us to desire this fate and ask for it. You don't want? Okay, remain in suffering. And, He doesn't want us to get converted by force because He doesn't like if someone is forced to love God - there can be no true love if one is forced to. So, you don't want to love God - you may, He won't be annoying.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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He wants us to desire this fate and ask for it. You don't want? Okay, remain in suffering. And, He doesn't want us to get converted by force because He doesn't like if someone is forced to love God - there can be no true love if one is forced to. So, you don't want to love God - you may


Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. Seriously, who wants to go to hell? All I ask is that I get a bit of evidence. I mean, after all, God made me and knows me better than I know myself right? He knows that all he has to do is give me some bit of empirical evidence and I'll be entirely his. It really shouldn't be that hard to provide just a bit of evidence in order to save untold millions of his children from eternal suffering.

And who's being forced? Providing a bit of evidence is not forcing. We would still be free to accept or deny the evidence, just as many people deny evolution even though there are mountains of evidence. That's the beauty of having the ability to choose. So, again, your argument falls flat on its face.

He won't be annoying.


Thank goodness for small favors. Now if only the same could be said about his fans.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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Do estimate the probability. I haven't heard anything but "unlikely" from anyone of you.


OK the probability is 0 because no one could have created him and him always being here is logically impossible. And anyway, to calculate that probability you would have to know every possible factor and no one does. Almost impossible seems adequate to me.
He wants us to desire this fate and ask for it. You don't want? Okay, remain in suffering. And, He doesn't want us to get converted by force because He doesn't like if someone is forced to love God - there can be no true love if one is forced to. So, you don't want to love God - you may, He won't be annoying.


It's not a matter of want and not want, it's a matter of exist and not exist. If he is as good as you say people would love him anyway they just need to know that he exists. Why did he make us need evidence and yet not give us any. That seems a mistake not worthy of an omniscient creator.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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It's not a matter of want and not want, it's a matter of exist and not exist.
This is wrong. Let's say, you are working somewhere, your computer behaves strangely but functions pretty well otherwise, so you repair any software issues by yourself. Now, an IT staff kid appeared and all of a sudden you are informed that there's IT personnel at your work. Your PC is sufficient for work, but then you understand that you can demand a better PC, and you do that just for the sake of it. <- This is the average human behavior, so if God will appear to everyone, there will be demands and DEMANDS off Him, which is bad for us since we'll fall into laziness - why working if we can ask God and He'll do everything for us? If I understand this right, this is the main reason of God not revealing Himself to entire people. You may also look at what Israeli people did when God led them through the desert, reading Exodus.
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