ForumsWEPRTheism and Atheism

4684 503750
thepyro222
offline
thepyro222
2,162 posts
910

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

  • 4,684 Replies
vesperbot
offline
vesperbot
959 posts
115

You were taught that he was with them during all this time. How do you know it's true? You can't verify it. That's a pretty poor explanation for god's existance.
Well, the fact of all the local tribes of Palestine were wiped out by Jewish travelling from Egypt, while them be inferior at least in armament, is of significance.
I'm pretty sure those who believe in Krishna and compagny could list you a good number of miracles they witnessed. What makes yours divine and theirs not?
Gimme first, will look and check.
Authorized King James Version of the bible.
OK, just haven't heard this acronym.
HahiHa
offline
HahiHa
6,737 posts
20,765

Well, the fact of all the local tribes of Palestine were wiped out by Jewish travelling from Egypt, while them be inferior at least in armament, is of significance.

Ok, that might be significant (although not enough). Where do you have that from?
Gimme first, will look and check.

Go ask them, I don't believe in their miracles either^^
But let's just assume that someone with a chronic disease prayed to Ganesh, and recovered completely after that, meaning it never came back.
vesperbot
offline
vesperbot
959 posts
115

Go ask them
Hehe, it's you who have the burden of proof in this case. You are to prove that Vishnu and stuff did make miracles worthy of calling such. Since you dodge, my claim that they are IPUs of different origin stays. Assumption is not enough, as there are several highly documented full-heals that medicine failed to explain, after devout prayers to Jesus. You can read Gloria Polo's issue for example.
Ok, that might be significant (although not enough). Where do you have that from?
Here and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_significant_to_the_Bible
here[quote]
HahiHa
offline
HahiHa
6,737 posts
20,765

Hehe, it's you who have the burden of proof in this case.

I never said that I wanted to prove they made real miracles. I just wanted to tell you there are other religions also claiming miracles, and that I wanted to know how you can specifically exclude theirs and not yours.
For that Gloria case, if medicine can't explain it, it automatically falls back to god's doing only because she prayed? It seems to me that it is an exception; I mean I'm sure there were tons of cases where a patient died even after real devout prayers. And if doctors can't explain it, doesn't mean it can't be explained medically somehow. We just haven't found out what happened. God's work is only a probable hypothesis here, but you have no direct proof why in this case specifically her prayer were heard and an external force healed her. In my opinion it was the prayer that saved her, that mobilized her forces and in the end she healed 'herself' with the help of the doctors. But I can't back up that opinion so don't ask for reasons, I couldn't answer.
vesperbot
offline
vesperbot
959 posts
115

why you say "only because"? This thing can't be proven. With Gloria Polo, God said that she will be a testimonial for her own cause in order to convince people that God exists, and more. Indeed some people die when others prayed for their recuperation without meaning to get good for themselves, but the reason beyond this death is often left unknown until the one who prayed arrived at God. I have heard a story about how a mother prayed for life of her son from the time he was a baby, for ~16 years straight, and he lived, grown up but showed the intentions of becoming a burglar or alike lawbreaker. Then an angel appeared to the mother at night and said something like "God wished him to become an angel at His throne, but you prayed so strongly that He allowed your child to live, and watch what has happened." So that mother prayed "Let there be your will" and released the child, he dies shortly afterwards.

It's either awesomely hard or plain impossible to get a rock-solid proof of God doing something for people, since this rock-solidity will force all people to know that there's God and thus allowing them to demand everything off God and succumb to laziness - why doing something if God will do anything?

About Gloria Polo - you might need to read the entire case prior to speaking, some of the documents were linked to from this topic page 86, including her entire testimony.

I never said that I wanted to prove they made real miracles. I just wanted to tell you there are other religions also claiming miracles
Atheists here disregard any evidence of a miracle without any proof. So do I, if I don't get any evidence to prove there were any. So far your argument looks like another "what if" with a false initial statement, which is never an argument.
Avorne
offline
Avorne
3,112 posts
655
vesperbot
offline
vesperbot
959 posts
115

I know of this argument. The harm is believing while disregarding others' help. God does act though other people. It's just that those people whom we badly need appear a lot closer if we pray. My wife had a need of a person to talk with once, and she prayed, and a girl sitting three seats behind approached - we're still friends, after more than two years. These are examples of attempting to employ faith vs medicine as false dichotomy. God never actually said to reject help of others.

Avorne
offline
Avorne
3,112 posts
655

'God acts through other people' doesn't that in essence interfere with free will then?

vesperbot
offline
vesperbot
959 posts
115

*thinking* I think no, those that are helping are not forced to help, they still have a choice not to. God urges at most, but never forces. Maybe except prophets (Jonah say, or one off Sirah's book that was told not to stay at a place but remained there and afterwards got killed by a lion), since these are totally devoted and professed that, effectively submitting their will to God's.

Avorne
offline
Avorne
3,112 posts
655

It's still interfering with people, surely, setting them along a course of action that they might not have considered or gone down had God not enlisted their help and 'acted' through them.

devoutskeptic
offline
devoutskeptic
14 posts
40

I love Jesus. He has helped rid me of all my addictions. I would be a pedo, murdering, drug addict if not for his help.
No lie. Jesus is amazing. <3

vesperbot
offline
vesperbot
959 posts
115

Interfering? Why should He not? There's a philosophy named "deism" which stated that God once created all and left us alone. It's wrong however, and is proven wrong. And, are you not interfering with others, just by speaking with them? Sure enough they "might not consider or act as it was" but this is plain false as just another "what if". There was a fact, a deed, and now you're asking "what if there will be no this deed".

Avorne
offline
Avorne
3,112 posts
655

Then the supposed free will that your deity gave you is a sham - he is interfering with you and changing the course of your actions. How the hell is deism proven wrong anyway? Far as I can see it - if there ever was a supreme being in this universe, which I'm 99.999% certain there wasn't, then it buggered off a long time ago.

qwerty1011
offline
qwerty1011
554 posts
875

ME discrediting the Bible? You should read this topic better. Why does God allow other branches to exist? Because Him coming and revealing Himself will actually be then end of time, and after that no one could ever change a thing. So He allows us to think for ourselves and find Him. By the way, there are good people in almost all of the Christian branches, and they will certainly be saved regardless of branch.


So you support: incest, execution, slavery, ****, being misogynistic, genocide etc. If you don't you have effectively discredited those parts. And if all that will get you into heaven is being a good person why be a Christian? And why does coming mean it will be the end of time. He came as Jesus and supposedly is everywhere. And there is still no explanation as to why some verses of the bible are right and some aren't.
Since you don't believe in miracles, you will not believe me. IPU hasn't given a single sign of its existance, while God was with Israeli people for 40 years straight, and did not leave them alone even when they have strayed. BTW, Christ resurrected. This alone is the sign of God to be real. About Allah - Mohammed took Old Testament as basis for Quran, therefore this name belongs to the very same God that is my God the Father. I'd rather stop discussing anything with you from now on, unless you will also tell me, how is mass media not brainwashing.

Krishna and stuff belong to the IPU category, there are no miracles that can prove their existance.


Yes because Jesus's resurrection is not based on circular reasoning since it is in a book in which the only reason it is true is not because it says it is true. And I bet the greek, Norse an Egyptian Gods all performed miracles and many Hindus can tell you about miracles of their God. There are some miracles such as this which have a scientific explanation but there are also these for most Christian miracles. I can't find much at the moment and I can't be bothered to really search for them but I'm sure there are lots and probably around as much as you have for Christianity.
how is mass media not brainwashing.


As I have already said children are evolutionarily programmed to believe what a figure of authority tells them since you can't test things like "don't eat those berries they are poisonous". This mainly works well but for things like religion it also works and leaves a deep psychological effect. Mass media isn't seen as a figure of authority and while some gullible people who trust conspiracy theories can be made to believe stuff which in a way is brainwashing barely anyone is stupid enough to do that.

First, God cannot lie, or else that wasn't God who said that. "What happened but not what God says happened"? Can you elaborate? "Wisdom of divine" is knowledge about spiritual world, which is inaccessible from the material world.


Er, disprove this

Also can you please provide answers as to why these aren't perfectly valid arguments for not needing god?

Interfering? Why should He not? There's a philosophy named "deism" which stated that God once created all and left us alone. It's wrong however, and is proven wrong. And, are you not interfering with others, just by speaking with them? Sure enough they "might not consider or act as it was" but this is plain false as just another "what if". There was a fact, a deed, and now you're asking "what if there will be no this deed".


Yes because saying something is wrong and giving no evidence is proof of its non existence. I think it is the most logical thing to do if you were God since he has made many systems which keep this world working without interference and if I were him I'd be making as much life as possible or something like that and not concerning himself with a race of a few billion arrogant monkeys who think thta they are important despite http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l51ns8B6d11qzlt8mo1_500.jpg

I love Jesus. He has helped rid me of all my addictions. I would be a pedo, murdering, drug addict if not for his help.
No lie. Jesus is amazing. <3


This is probably a troll but anyway, Jesus still doesn't have to exist to have this effect. Also, why aren't all atheists a pedo, murdering drug addict if thats what happens if you don't turn to jesus.
fantasy4life
offline
fantasy4life
1,918 posts
8,620

I just met my friend who is strict with the rules of christian religion, and obeys them in every way, but one day I asked him about the bible and did he read it, and he said no. You will get this answer often with christians, so It's kind of stupid for people obeying god when they didn't even read the bible. That's like driving a car without a license, you know some stuff, but you never know it all. It's stupid in my opinion.

Showing 1186-1200 of 4684