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thepyro222
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thepyro222
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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MageGrayWolf
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What's KJV, first? And second, neither quote from the Bible should be read as a single ripped-off statement. Say, Ezekiel 14:9 spoke about false prophets who did not receive their word from God. 2 Chronicles and 1 Kings spoke the same. Do check the context prior to posting.


They are even expressly stating it's God doing this and your warping it around that it's not God doing it.
As for Ezekiel it's God saying how he will pose as the prophets idol to get them to come back so any of the false prophesying done is actually God deceiving that prophet as part of his roll play as their idol.

Mage! It's time for your context video once more


Wouldn't help with vesper much since he said he can't view YouTube videos, but fro everyone else.
Context!!!!!!
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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How the hell is deism proven wrong anyway?
By miracles.
Then the supposed free will that your deity gave you is a sham - he is interfering with you and changing the course of your actions.
Urging is not equal to changing, you are to decide.
So you support: incest, execution, slavery, ****, being misogynistic, genocide etc.
Stop juggling words, read the whole of the Bible, and read the Bible as a whole, then return.
And there is still no explanation as to why some verses of the bible are right and some aren't.
Mt 19:3 and following as an example, about divorces being allowed early but forbidden later.
Mass media isn't seen as a figure of authority
By adults, maybe, though I have a set of them around that still blindly trust mass media. By children, no this is wrong, as you have just said, children accept any information as true, and more and more mothers, obsessed by career, leave their children before TVs so they won't cry and spoil the rest or whatever of their mothers.
I can't be bothered to really search for them but I'm sure there are lots and probably around as much as you have for Christianity.
Playing probability games? Still, yes, it's normal for some "miracles" to be explained scientifically, after all mass hysteria is common among humanity. The question is, are there miracles presumably done by any other deity but God that don't have a valid scientific explanation, and there were serious attempt at that? I'm sure there are none.
Er, disprove this
Okay. Jesus didn't say about the time frame when the request should be fulfilled. Perseverance works. And if you pray for something to be done NOW or in a given amount of time, you're demanding instead of asking.
Also can you please provide answers as to why these aren't perfectly valid arguments for not needing god?
A) Interventions occur, see above.
B) Evolution was discussed already. Why you don't need God to explain evolution? As a science, you don't, as a matter of why mutations happen, you're to invoke random, and this randomization allows for God's interference.
C) Already discussed, see this topic. In short: How were the laws of physics formulated like what are they now? What has happened in the period of time which science cannot describe? What happened prior to the Big Bang? What happened first, time start or the Big Bang?
D) See 10 to 0 pages above, there was talk about these in particular. AND prove that Egypt refugees took YHWH's worshipping from those that remained in the Canaan. Otherwise this statement is false, not just imperfect.
E) Oh wait, that's a conclusion? The conclusion is that neither of these explanations is perfect, therefore they don't disprove God needed.
if I were him I'd be making as much life as possible or something like that and not concerning himself with a race of a few billion arrogant monkeys who think thta they are important
If you were God??? Another what-if-false detected. You're comparing what's incomparable. However, about the pic - it's pretty right, we're nothing without God, and only our life in God makes us something.
It's stupid in my opinion.
Well, that's why we have Catechism lessons, and we have also the ability to read the Bible. If one wishes to learn more, he will. I did read the whole of the Bible, by the way.
Wouldn't help with vesper much since he said he can't view YouTube videos, but fro everyone else.
Context!!!!!!
Leviticus after NT? LOL. If you will change the cause and effect in any of the scientific laws, you'll be LOLed a lot harder. Here is the same.
But why is a priest needed? Why can one not simply confess to god? Would god not answer them and absolve them of their sins?
Several protestant denominations say they don't need a priest for this, indeed. The priest is there as a visible sign of God absolving sins. Also if a person requests absolution off God directly, he might be invoking a wrong image of God, "God-as-I-see-Him", centering not on God but on himself, thus requesting off himself instead of God. A really saint person who lives in harmony with God, whatever denomination, has His image untouched, but who of us will say he's the one? Because once a person says "I'm saintlike", he's falling to self-pride, as we all are poor sinners. So, the priest serves as a correct image of God, and he's given power of representing God in sacraments, including the Reconciliation (the word "confession" is the name of the ritual of this sacrament, and is often confused with its name).
Also, who died and made the pope the sole speaker on matters of God?
You might know about that episcopal council participates in any decision making that will affect a part of the Church, and since there is spiritual matter in question, and because episcopes are placed on this servitude by God, the Holy Spirit is among them and helps them find the correct answer each time. And only then the Pope speaks, and while he speaks, Holy Spirit guards him from erring.
Kasic
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Kasic
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And only then the Pope speaks, and while he speaks, Holy Spirit guards him from erring.


So what happens when he's wrong, the holy spirit is convienently not with him at just that moment, but whenever he's right it is? What a way to just dodge everything.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Urging is not equal to changing, you are to decide.

Your actions are changed nonetheless, or would you say you could go on living as if there was nothing, after your loving allmighty god has asked you for something?

The question is, are there miracles presumably done by any other deity but God that don't have a valid scientific explanation, and there were serious attempt at that? I'm sure there are none.

You see god behind a miracle because you believe in god and can't imagine any other. People with a different faith will see the action of their own god. I mean, not everyone that is presumably miraculously saved, was a christian.

The priest is there as a visible sign of God absolving sins

I see priests, but they are all human with no sign of god whatsoever. What is this sign of god we are supposed to be able to see?

Also if a person requests absolution off God directly, he might be invoking a wrong image of God, "God-as-I-see-Him", centering not on God but on himself, thus requesting off himself instead of God

So instead of invoking my own image of god, I go to a priest who will invoke his image of god. I mean, haven't you all different images of god? Everyone has an own personal image, and everyone has an own personal faith. Going to someone other won't solve the problem.

And only then the Pope speaks, and while he speaks, Holy Spirit guards him from erring.

That holy spirit must not be very alert, I've heard the pope say pretty stupid things. What with contradictions between different popes?

Short question, do you attach any importance to the Prophecy of the Popes, or do you also think it's a forgery?
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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By miracles.


Again, can you prove a single miracle with unbiased witnesses. And considering that you have a few miracles which may or may not actually be miraculous I don't think that is much proof of Gods existence.
Stop juggling words, read the whole of the Bible, and read the Bible as a whole, then return.


Look, you can't deny these are in the bible and you have already claimed that God can't lie so do you support these claims or do you say that these claims are not what God wanted and are irrelevant to current Christianity.

By adults, maybe, though I have a set of them around that still blindly trust mass media. By children, no this is wrong, as you have just said, children accept any information as true, and more and more mothers, obsessed by career, leave their children before TVs so they won't cry and spoil the rest or whatever of their mothers.


oh yeah, I forgot, there are so many kids TV shows that try and tell them things repeatedly to brainwash them. The kind of things that could brainwash are mainly on shows watched by adults.

Playing probability games? Still, yes, it's normal for some "miracles" to be explained scientifically, after all mass hysteria is common among humanity. The question is, are there miracles presumably done by any other deity but God that don't have a valid scientific explanation, and there were serious attempt at that? I'm sure there are none.


A deity is a God, that is what deity means. Anyway how can you prove miracles were made by your Christian God, why not Krishna, or Vishnu. They could've done it and someone claimed it was God. Any claims that there would be a miracle before there was a miracle would only be talked about after the miracle. You can't prove there were any miracles made by Jesus and I'm sure that the Greek and Egyptian gods made tonnes.

Okay. Jesus didn't say about the time frame when the request should be fulfilled. Perseverance works. And if you pray for something to be done NOW or in a given amount of time, you're demanding instead of asking.


So there is absolutely no point in praying since they will all be granted once the prayer is dead then. Because that is basically what you are saying.

If you were God??? Another what-if-false detected. You're comparing what's incomparable. However, about the pic - it's pretty right, we're nothing without God, and only our life in God makes us something.


How does worshiping God make you something? If that was true then God would need our belief since that would be the only difference caused by us believing and by that logic God needs us so if we help him by giving him belief then he should help us in return and we should see evidence of his work. And before you argue against these just think, why would an all powerful being want our belief if he didn't need it. Surely we could be doing more with the time we spend going to church so clearly he must want us to worship him because he needs the worship.

A) Interventions occur, see above.
B) Evolution was discussed already. Why you don't need God to explain evolution? As a science, you don't, as a matter of why mutations happen, you're to invoke random, and this randomization allows for God's interference.
C) Already discussed, see this topic. In short: How were the laws of physics formulated like what are they now? What has happened in the period of time which science cannot describe? What happened prior to the Big Bang? What happened first, time start or the Big Bang?
D) See 10 to 0 pages above, there was talk about these in particular. AND prove that Egypt refugees took YHWH's worshipping from those that remained in the Canaan. Otherwise this statement is false, not just imperfect.
E) Oh wait, that's a conclusion? The conclusion is that neither of these explanations is perfect, therefore they don't disprove God needed.


a) You have provided no evidence
b) Randomization occurs naturally, there is no need for God anywhee in evolution.
c) The laws of physics have to be one way, they could be another way in a different place but we wouldn't exist there so we wouldn't be able to ask why they were that way. So this means they have to be this way to be able to wonder why they are this. Science has many theories as to what happened before the big bang which are a tad more sophisticated that "there was a magic sky fairy who was groping around in the dark for infinity and at the end of infinity said let there be light. And time can't be start or stopped since it will always be here, there just might not be events to happen in it.
d) Wait, so you must prove something that happened thousands of years ago with evidence that you will most likely call flawed while you believe in an incredibly sophisticated being who was here for infinity yet was never created. I think I see a flaw in your logic here.
e)Please provide something which needs God to have happened and can have been proven to happen. Until then we can assume God doesn't exist since there is no evidence for it.

And can you please give me one miracle which can be proven to have been made by your God and no one else's.

Well, that's why we have Catechism lessons, and we have also the ability to read the Bible. If one wishes to learn more, he will. I did read the whole of the Bible, by the way.


Seriously, if you have read the bible how can you agree with things like Leviticus and Deuteronomy since the Bible was inspired by God and since God can't lie and he said slavery etc was right does that mean slavery is right. Because if you don't agree with some parts how can you claim the rest is holy since a holy book should have mistakes in it and since God is supposedly the basis for your morals what he says is right should always be right.
MageGrayWolf
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Seriously, if you have read the bible how can you agree with things like Leviticus and Deuteronomy since the Bible was inspired by God and since God can't lie and he said slavery etc was right does that mean slavery is right.


I guess there are parts of the infallible perfect word of God you can ignore. Of course this just sounds like a complete load, but hey if you can excuse it away right?
OperationNilo
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atheist velociraptors, always looking for christians to hunt. way to ruin a thread

qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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atheist velociraptors, always looking for christians to hunt. way to ruin a thread


Give us one shred of proof for your religion and we will stop.
OperationNilo
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OperationNilo
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That's what faith's all about. there are no facts. you are an anti-theist, not an atheist

Avorne
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Avorne
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atheist velociraptors


I applaud you, seriously, you've just made Atheism even more awesome than it already was. I suppose I should retaliate with Christian snails or something like that, it'd only apply to fundamentalists like you of course, you're slow to catch up with the times and don't seem to be particularly smart.
Nurvana
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I applaud you, seriously, you've just made Atheism even more awesome than it already was. I suppose I should retaliate with Christian snails or something like that, it'd only apply to fundamentalists like you of course, you're slow to catch up with the times and don't seem to be particularly smart.


Okay let's get back on topic.
Give us one shred of proof for your religion and we will stop.


Hey calm down there sir. I sure hope you don't consider unexplainable happenings as shreds of proof.
314d1
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Hey calm down there sir. I sure hope you don't consider unexplainable happenings as shreds of proof.


There are no unexplainable things.

That's what faith's all about. there are no facts. you are an anti-theist, not an atheist


Then you are wrong. And I am both.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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That's what faith's all about. there are no facts. you are an anti-theist, not an atheist


You can be both. And I take it you believe in fairies, unicorns, magic, trolls, dwarfs, ogres, goblins and everything else with no proof.

Hey calm down there sir. I sure hope you don't consider unexplainable happenings as shreds of proof.


I consider a miracle which can be attributed to God with no arguments as proof. Until you supply one which can't say be attributed to Krishna then I will continue to poke more holes in this big hole you call christianity
MageGrayWolf
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I hereby request you quit attributing fatima's miracle to god, he had nothing to do with it and it was the unicorn's work, working in it's mysterious ways.


It's easily explained, dust in the atmosphere created an optical illusion of the sun changing color and moving around in the sky. These atmospheric conditions were present on that day. You can even see this in the photographs of the event.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/fatima-miracle-of-the-sun-1.jpg

An interesting seminar on why we tend to believe in gods.
Why We Believe in Gods - Andy Thomson - American Atheists 09

Out of millions we have 66 "miracles".
Lourdes - Miraculous Facts
MRWalker82
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Here's the deal. We all know that no one REALLY believes the Christian religion, and I can prove it.

Christianity teaches that only a select few will live their life in such a way that they will enter heaven. Christianity also teaches that infants are innocent and get into heaven by default. The most loving thing a parent could do, then, is to kill their children before they reach an age of reason and thus lose their innocence. Yet, thankfully, this doesn't happen.

Christianity also teaches that when we die, if we've done things right, we get to go to heaven. Well, ever been to a Christian funeral? When was the last time you heard them saying that the deceased was in hell? Never? Oh, yeah. That's because they all believe that everyone gets into heaven. I mean, who wants to think their loved ones are in hell? Well, anyone who REALLY believed the Christian faith would have to admit that it is nearly impossible for ANYONE to get to heaven, and thus it is almost certain that their loved one did something to keep them out and is frying like bacon in hell.

Also, the Bible tells us to rejoice for the dead, for they are at the hand of God in paradise. We also don't see any rejoicing at funerals, and thus these people are NOT following their holy book, they are defying it. If they truly believed that heaven was the best place we could go they would be ecstatic that their mother, father, brother, friend, whoever, has perished, but they are not.

You can use all sorts of counter arguments if you like, but the fact remains that if someone truly honestly believed in the Christian religion then these are the behaviors we would see, based strictly on Biblical scripture. The fact that we do not see them is evidence that people do not fully believe in it. They have doubts, reservations. Parts of their brain that understand reality are still working, despite the best efforts of their religion to the contrary.

And thank goodness that even religion cannot fully shut down cognitive reasoning, otherwise this would be a horrible place to live indeed.

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