ForumsWEPRHeaven and Hell?

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44Flames
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44Flames
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Nomad

I am catholic so I believe that there is heaven and hell. I do beleive that you have to do good in this world to be able to go to heaven but if you do evil and bad more than good in this world I do believe that you will go to hell.

Heaven it is hard to concept the thought of living for eternity in heaven and that everything would be perfect and everyone would be nice and kind.

Hell it is also very hard to think that you will be punished for many years until getting the chance to go to heaven. Also you could be in hell for eternity suffering if you do very bad things in this world.

What is you thought on heaven and hell?

Do you beleive in heaven and hell?

Do you think you will go to heaven or hell?

Is God really real?

Discuss, it can be short or long answers or views.

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nichodemus
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In Rome, in the year 93 AD, the Roman historian Flavius Josephus published his extensive history of the Jews. In discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, writings attributed to Josephus commonly known as The Testimonium Flavianum include this revealing account that points not only to Jesus of Nazareth having lived, but that He was crucified under Pilate, was known as the Messiah, and rose from the dead:

" About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. " - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3.63


You do know that what you gave me doesn't prove anything about Jesus' supposed supernatural powers do you? I wholeheartedly agree that Jesus as a historical figure exists, however, I disagree completely that there are historical evidence to back up the Bible's claims to his supernatural state of being.

And your source says nothing about that, except to prove that Jesus as a man existed.
MageGrayWolf
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In Rome, in the year 93 AD, the Roman historian Flavius Josephus published his extensive history of the Jews.


In which it is believed that the part on Jesus was either partially or entirely forged. Even still Josephus is a third part account at best. Any reference to Jesus in a historical sense from this point would only be coming from the stories and not from documentation.


I wholeheartedly agree that Jesus as a historical figure exists,


While I don't have enough to say conclusively that he never existed I do have some serious doubts. Besides the complete lack of first hand accounts, there is plenty to link Jesus was retellings of fictional stories. The way the records seem to go indicate the story didn't even exist until decades after the fact. On top of all that there were people in power who believed lying was a good way to perpetuate the religion.

So we have no first hand accounts,
a black out period where there isn't even a single mention of these supposed events,
fictional stories that easily match (in some cases almost word for word) the events claimed to have happened,
and people in authority willing and able to lie to spread the religion.
vincent4491
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vincent4491
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What is you thought on heaven and hell?

Do you beleive in heaven and hell?

Do you think you will go to heaven or hell?

Is God really real?


Well I'm Catholic too and I'm believe there's a heaven and hell.
I really can't answer that I'll go to hell or heaven, but I think you should do whatever you feel good if you want go to heaven.
But the most important is you must not forget good or bad is depends on God who create us, not on us.

nichodemus
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But the most important is you must not forget good or bad is depends on God who create us, not on us.


That made no sense at all. We do not need a moral superior being to tell us what is right or wrong, nor do we need him to tell us what is right or wrong. Society decides by itself.
44Flames
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So we have no first hand accounts,


I stongly disagree there are 4 gospels mathew, mark , luke and John stating Jesus is real and everything he did while he was alive. Also other gospels in the Bible also say the Jesus is real and in the Jewish book it says that Jesus is real. Plus millions say him perform miracles, many say him die on the cross and plenty say him resurect from the died.

Here is a video please watch it, it is about how God will not reject people that do not beleive in God and about flaws in the Christaian/Catholic religion. But it does not make the Chritain religion untrue.

Here is the video
nichodemus
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Plus millions say him perform miracles, many say him die on the cross and plenty say him resurect from the died.


Millions saw him perform miracles? Evidence?

The Gospel According to Mark does not name its author. A 2nd century tradition ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist (also known as John Mark), the companion of Peter,on whose memories it is supposedly based.

The traditional view is that Luke, who was not an eye-witness of Jesus' ministry, wrote his gospel after gathering the best sources of information within his reach (Luke 1:1-4). Critical scholarship generally holds to the two-source hypothesis as most probable, which argues that the author used the Gospel of Mark and the hypothetical Q document in addition to unique material, as sources for the gospel.

The gospel identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." The text does not actually name this disciple, but by the beginning of the 2nd century a tradition began to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus's innermost circle). Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it, and trace it instead to a 'Johannine community' which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three 'layers', reaching its final form about 90-100 AD.

The Gospel of Matthew does not name its author. by the end of the 2nd century the tradition of Matthew the tax-collector had become widely accepted, and the line "The Gospel According to Matthew" began to be added to manuscripts. For many reasons most scholars today doubt thisâ"for example, the gospel is based on Mark, and 'it seems unlikely that an eyewitness of Jesus's ministry, such as Matthew, would need to rely on others for information about it'â"and believe instead that it was written between about 80â"90 AD by a highly educated Jew (an 'Israelite', in the language of the gospel itself), intimately familiar with the technical aspects of Jewish law, standing on the boundary between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values


The gospels wrote first hand accounts? Really? No one really knows who they write them, and most evidence points to the fact they were written after his death, NOT by first hand witnesses.
nichodemus
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As for the video, I will watch it later, after I come back from my homework.

MageGrayWolf
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I stongly disagree there are 4 gospels mathew, mark , luke and John stating Jesus is real and everything he did while he was alive.


The four Gospels aren't first hand accounts. The earliest of the four was written some 40-70 years after the supposed events. The last of the four was written at least 100 years after. Non of them are actually written by who they are attributed to as well.

Also other gospels in the Bible also say the Jesus is real and in the Jewish book it says that Jesus is real.


Jesus is real because the Bible says Jesus is real? Sorry not working try again.
Also which Jewish book would this be? The Torah perhaps? This doesn't actually include anything on Jesus specifically.

Plus millions say him perform miracles, many say him die on the cross and plenty say him resurect from the died.


I'm guessing you mean million saw him do these things. Though there is no record from even a single one of them. The only place we hear of people witnessing these events on mass is in the stories of the Bible itself. So again you are resorting to using circular reasoning and claiming the Bible is proof of what the Bible says.

Here is a video please watch it, it is about how God will not reject people that do not beleive in God and about flaws in the Christaian/Catholic religion.


It has nothing to do with God not rejecting non believers. It's about the inaccurate use of rejection on part of the atheist. It also points out what "god" is as being not some magical being and ruler but one's own ego and thoughts.
nichodemus
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Exactly what Mage said. Furthermore, I really don't see the part of using a break up to explain rejecting God. Two unrelated things!

I'm not exactly sure whether you linked the right video, even right from the onset, it's crystal clear that it's an atheist video. Right from the description:

''The evidence indicates that the personal god is a manifestation of the ego, which explains a plethora of theistic tendencies, including their typical dislike of atheists, who theists subconsciously perceive to be rejecting a part of themselves.''

Also, before I forget, the sources I used for the Gospels, was Wikipedia.

nichodemus
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Responding to your post on the Mayan thread here, because it's more relevant here.


what they believed was all a leap of faith on something they almost definitely plucked out of the thin air.


44Flames:
So like how people think there is no God. Lol just kidding around.


Er no....we don't pluck it out of thin air. We can't disprove God, because the concept of a God/supernatural is non-falsifiable, but that makes for an extremely weak case for God.

Furthermore, if we take the Bible to be the word of God, or as a book that literally describes God and his actions, it would be easy to refute the Christian God. What we can't do, is disprove the fact that a God might exist.
44Flames
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@MageGrayWolf

Also which Jewish book would this be? The Torah perhaps? This doesn't actually include anything on Jesus specifically.


In Rome, in the year 93 AD, the Roman historian Flavius Josephus published his extensive history of the Jews. In discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, writings attributed to Josephus commonly known as The Testimonium Flavianum include this revealing account that points not only to Jesus of Nazareth having lived, but that He was crucified under Pilate, was known as the Messiah, and rose from the dead:

" About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. " - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3.63

The earliest of the four was written some 40-70 years after the supposed events.


But what the dicsiples were so scared of them being found out and being crucified too because they beleive in what Jesus taught them. This could sugest why the actual gospels were written so long after. Also the disciples could have been writting sortly after Jesus died but did not want to but all the gospel together and make a Bible yet because of the fear of being caught.

@nichodemus
[quote]Er no....we don't pluck it out of thin air. We can't disprove God, because the concept of a God/supernatural is non-falsifiable, but that makes for an extremely weak case for God.
Furthermore, if we take the Bible to be the word of God, or as a book that literally describes God and his actions, it would be easy to refute the Christian God. What we can't do, is disprove the fact that a God might exist.


Yes, I do realize that there is no concrete evidence of how God exists. The only real way to know is to go back to that time period and see if what the scriputres claim is true.
nichodemus
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But what the dicsiples were so scared of them being found out and being crucified too because they beleive in what Jesus taught them. This could sugest why the actual gospels were written so long after.


Yes, but so? That doesn't negate the fact that the Gospels were still written decades after he died, and it doesn't increase the credibility of the Bible.


Also the disciples could have been writting sortly after Jesus died but did not want to but all the gospel together and make a Bible yet because of the fear of being caught.


Even if they did, their works never trickled down to us, since the Gospels you hold to be true today, have already been proven to be non-first hand accounts, etc, etc.
44Flames
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Previous in this thread people suggested that reincarnation could also happen after your death.

Personally, in the terms of after death, I've always liked the Hindu/Buddhist versions of reincarnation best. You come back based on your deeds in past life (karma), until eventually you reach nirvana in one of your lives.


I believe that we live this life, then if we're good, we go to heaven. Then we can come back down here, and live again. Reincarnation in a nutshell. If we lived an immoral life, we come back to Earth almost instantly, living a bad life, like bad health, born in poverty, et cetera. I believe in God, you don't have to believe me, this is just my opinion.


This person above also suggests that if you had a good life but were a bad person that you would go to heaven but then instantly for everyone if you were a bad person but had a good life on earth then you would go back and live with a bad life like in third world countries.

Do you think Reincarnation is true? It is an intriging thought?
44Flames
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44Flames
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Nomad

since the Gospels you hold to be true today, have already been proven to be non-first hand accounts, etc, etc.


Oh did you post the proof on previous pages because I must have skipped over that then. Could someone maybe explain how they aren't first hand accounts?
nichodemus
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The sources are really self-explanatory as to why they are not first hand accounts. Just read them.

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