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is abortion ok?

Posted Feb 19, '13 at 11:33am

HahiHa

HahiHa

5,260 posts

Knight

The point is that even germ cells are live cells, so it seems pointless to use that as argument on the limits of abortion.

Besides, pets are sometimes also put to death if there are too many risks coming from them (things like overly aggressive dogs biting kids, or sick cattle); and they are definitely alive. So please understand if I have trouble finding consistency in the arguments basing on "life" alone.

 

Posted Feb 19, '13 at 3:04pm

Wyrzen

Wyrzen

327 posts

I can understand, it's not a concrete argument, it was more of an attempt.

It still brings me back, though, to what you define as life starting, because then it defines what counts as infantile murder.

 

Posted Feb 19, '13 at 3:51pm

EmperorPalpatine

EmperorPalpatine

9,437 posts

to what you define as life starting

I'll go with George Carlin's statement of 'Life started billions of years ago and is a continuous process'.

what counts as infantile murder.

Usually personhood goes by respiration.
 

Posted Feb 19, '13 at 4:44pm

HahiHa

HahiHa

5,260 posts

Knight

I'll go with George Carlin's statement of 'Life started billions of years ago and is a continuous process'.

Nice quote. I agree, there is no 'dead' phase between parents and offsprings.

because then it defines what counts as infantile murder.

Infantile murder. Murder of infants. That excludes basically everything that hasn't come out of the womb yet. But that's just word playing. I personally think the limit of, what is it, 12 weeks until which abortions can be made, and the clause allowing abortions in medical emergencies, makes sense. I wouldn't want to abort a several months old thing.
 

Posted Feb 19, '13 at 5:23pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,776 posts

Knight

Conscious thought it's necessary to be considered 'alive' however.

For a "something" to be "alive" it has to do five of the following: Movement, Respiration, Sensitivity, Growth, Reproduction, Excretion, and Nutrition.


No consciousness is not necessary to be regarded as alive. There are plenty of living organisms that we consider alive that do not have consciousness. In fact most of what makes up you are individual living organisms that aren't even classified as human. Are you willing to say each one of those has it's own consciousness?

As for your definition of what is alive, a developing fetus would seem to lack a few. Of course to be considered alive there are more criteria and an organism doesn't necessarily have to meet them all but most.

I'll go with George Carlin's statement of 'Life started billions of years ago and is a continuous process'.


That's pretty much exactly what I've been saying.
 

Posted Feb 19, '13 at 10:05pm

Wyrzen

Wyrzen

327 posts

No consciousness is not necessary to be regarded as alive. There are plenty of living organisms that we consider alive that do not have consciousness. In fact most of what makes up you are individual living organisms that aren't even classified as human. Are you willing to say each one of those has it's own consciousness?


I mean, I already stated it wasn't a rock solid argument.

Infantile murder. Murder of infants. That excludes basically everything that hasn't come out of the womb yet. But that's just word playing. I personally think the limit of, what is it, 12 weeks until which abortions can be made, and the clause allowing abortions in medical emergencies, makes sense. I wouldn't want to abort a several months old thing.


I can see where you're coming from. It's one thing to abort a fetus the size of a thumb versus a baby at 30 weeks. But I don't know all the cosmic details of life, so I personally would just rather play it safe, bar situations such as ****.
 

Posted Feb 19, '13 at 10:17pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,776 posts

Knight

But I don't know all the cosmic details of life, so I personally would just rather play it safe, bar situations such as ****.


What cosmic details? We have a developing embryo with such an under developed nervous system that it's unlikely to be able to feel anything and such an under developed brain that it's unlikely to be able to process any such signals. You're not playing it safe here, you're ignoring the physics of what we know to be going on in favor of emotion bias.
 

Posted Feb 19, '13 at 10:22pm

Wyrzen

Wyrzen

327 posts

What cosmic details? We have a developing embryo with such an under developed nervous system that it's unlikely to be able to feel anything and such an under developed brain that it's unlikely to be able to process any such signals. You're not playing it safe here, you're ignoring the physics of what we know to be going on in favor of emotion bias.


Biology maybe instead of physics? :)

In every argument emotion does play a part, though I try to keep it as small as possible. I'm just saying if I was the doctor, I'd play safe and not do abortions, bar previously stated important matters, because I don't want even a shadow of doubt that I could possibly be committing murder. But that's just me and my opinion.
 

Posted Feb 19, '13 at 10:48pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,776 posts

Knight

Biology maybe instead of physics? :)


Either term works here.

In every argument emotion does play a part, though I try to keep it as small as possible.


But that doesn't seem to be what you're doing.

I'm just saying if I was the doctor, I'd play safe and not do abortions, bar previously stated important matters,


Yeah because we know just how well that's worked out recently with the mothers dying and all...

because I don't want even a shadow of doubt that I could possibly be committing murder.


If you look at it from the biological aspect of it you aren't. There is no functioning brain, no fully developed nervous system, resulting in consciousness thus personhood isn't present yet. We have the willing consent of the only cognitive agent physically impacted (the mother), therefore not a murder.
 

Posted Feb 20, '13 at 5:31am

Wyrzen

Wyrzen

327 posts

But that doesn't seem to be what you're doing.


You may not think so.

If you look at it from the biological aspect of it you aren't. There is no functioning brain, no fully developed nervous system, resulting in consciousness thus personhood isn't present yet. We have the willing consent of the only cognitive agent physically impacted (the mother), therefore not a murder.


Like I've said several times, it's just my opinion. It could be right or wrong. You're trying to beat a dead horse.
 
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