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is abortion ok?

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 12:00am

Reton8

Reton8

2,669 posts

Moderator

I would say when sustained consciousness is achieved.

How far along would that be?

 

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 12:27am

thugtastic

thugtastic

164 posts

I would say when sustained consciousness is achieved. Which doesn't occur until the brain is further developed.

What changes at this point?
Of course consciousness is achieved, but how does that make it any more of a person?

 

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 12:30am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

How far along would that be?

I'm not sure exactly at what point the brain is sufficiently developed in order to achieve consciousness. I do know however that the point at which we often abort a pregnancy is to early though. The earliest premature baby to be born and live was at 21 week 6 days. Though this doesn't mean that the baby had yet developed consciousness. This was also an extremely rare case. Also 21 weeks is still much later than when we usually abort.
"Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation." - Scientific America
Dreaming starts around 4-5 months. So it may develop sometime between 24 weeks and 5 months where consciousness becomes possible.

 

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 12:36am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

What changes at this point?
Of course consciousness is achieved, but how does that make it any more of a person?

The difference is at that point the fetus capable of thinking, feel, taking in external stimuli, etc. That is what makes it more of a person.

Also to add to my last point brainwaves aren't detectable until 26 weeks. So it might be more accurate that consciousness take place between 26 weeks and 5 months.

 

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 1:17am

thugtastic

thugtastic

164 posts

So what about people who are almost completely brain dead or mentally retarded, is it ok to kill them because you don't like them?

 

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 1:25am

Salvidian

Salvidian

3,950 posts

I'm not sure exactly at what point the brain is sufficiently developed in order to achieve consciousness.

Google. I'm pretty sure it varies quite a bit too.

 

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 1:31am

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

8,704 posts

So what about people who are almost completely brain dead or mentally retarded, is it ok to kill them because you don't like them?

1) They still have a consciousness

2) They are not a parasite on the woman's body

3) Please try to refrain from the Ad Hominems.

 

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 1:36am

Salvidian

Salvidian

3,950 posts

2) They are not a parasite on the woman's body

Wouldn't it somewhat be mutual? I'm totally going off on random thoughts from the back of my mind, but I often hear of women's health improving over the course of their pregnancies. Of course, that might simply be due to the fact that they're isolated from the dangers of the world a bit more.

3) Please try to refrain from the Ad Hominems.

Can I get a definition?

 

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 1:57am

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

8,704 posts

but I often hear of women's health improving over the course of their pregnancies. Of course, that might simply be due to the fact that they're isolated from the dangers of the world a bit more.

Keep in mind..it isn't a parasite in the normal sense of how a parasite it (where it degrades the body) but in the fact that it is taking nutrients and all without providing anything in return

And the health could be due to the woman improving their diet in anticipation for the child?

Can I get a definition?

an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument. Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy, more precisely an irrelevance. (from wiki)

The part I was referring to in his argument was when he said "because you don't like them?". This has nothing to do with the discussion of abortion..and implies that the reason for one being pro-choice (or..pro-abortion in some peoples mind) is due to them "not liking them"

 

Posted Mar 24, '13 at 2:15am

Salvidian

Salvidian

3,950 posts

Keep in mind..it isn't a parasite in the normal sense of how a parasite it (where it degrades the body) but in the fact that it is taking nutrients and all without providing anything in return

Wouldn't a depletion in nutrition without receiving anything in return be considered degrading? If you lose nutrition, your body degrades. Seeing how the fetus doesn't offer anything in return it could be considered a parasite then. Really, both senses of parasitism you gave could be the same logically. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.

And the health could be due to the woman improving their diet in anticipation for the child?

Indeed.

 
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