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is abortion ok?

Posted May 9, '14 at 12:05pm

09philj

09philj

2,545 posts

Yes, but your still depriving it from becoming a person, so it's the same thing as murder technically (taking away its potential life).


It needs to be a human before it can be murder.

But them doesn't not too, for they will soon.


And I will, in the future, be an adult, but I don't have the rights of an adult.

Dang, I am good.
 

Posted May 9, '14 at 1:01pm

Moegreche

Moegreche

3,350 posts

Moderator

That analogy falls apart, however, because they aren't being denied the eventual opportunity to vote.

Let me make the argument a bit more clear. Here is (a simplified version of) the potentiality argument:

1) Persons have a right to life.
2) A foetus has the potential to be a person.
3) Therefore, a foetus has the right to life.

Now, obviously this argument is invalid. The missing premise(s), however, is(are) complicated. We need to say something like the following:

P: If some x has the potential to become some y, and y has the property p, then x has the property p.

But let's just stick with our original argument, without P. Note that we could include P and still run this counterargument:

1) U.S. citizens aged 18 and up have the right to vote.
2) A 12-year old (U.S. citizen) has the potential to become an 18-year old U.S. citizen.
3) Therefore, a 12-year old (U.S. citizen) has the right to vote.

So it's not about denying them some potential right. The potentiality argument needs the conclusion that the foetus does, in fact, already have a right to life because it's a potential person.
Here's another way of putting it. The argument isn't that they have the potential right to life, which is being denied. The argument is that they are potential members of a class which do have that right, so - in virtue of this potential - the foetus has that right as well.

@09philj put this point much more succinctly:

And I will, in the future, be an adult, but I don't have the rights of an adult.

Dang, you are good!

 

Posted May 9, '14 at 6:40pm

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

10,090 posts

So you're saying it's only alright to kill a baby inside the womb but not outside of the womb?


Holy mother of a loaded question.

During the time that an abortion may be performed, what is inside the mother can best be described as a mass of cells acting as a parasite upon the mother....it's a beautiful mass of parasitic cells, though, because maybe, hopefully, one day it could achieve its potential for human life.

Also, not sure if this argument has been brought up yet..probably has with how many times we've gone in circles in this thread..

So, let's do a hypothetical situation. Your brother was in a car accident, and in order to survive needs an organ of yours. I don't really care which one, so you can think of one yourself. If you do not give him this organ, he WILL die. His life is in your hands, and by giving him your organ you allow him to continue his life.
But guess what, you don't have to give him your organ! Because it is your body, you have no obligations to give up anything to save his life bar any moral principles you may have.
Now we look back to the mass of cells, it has yet to reach a point where it may survive outside of its body, and at its current state has nothing more than the -potential- to become human. But in order to survive, it needs -your- body. So here we find ourselves at the same spot we were with your brother. Someone/something needs your body in order to fulfill its potential of life
 

Posted May 9, '14 at 6:50pm

SportShark

SportShark

1,109 posts

You have a point, but let me go on to say that I am very wary of agreeing with you, pang. After all, you like the movie A Serbian Film. Proof:. I know this is a bit off topic, but I'm not surprised that you are pro-abortion since you like a movie in which newborn babies are raped and tortured.

 

Posted May 9, '14 at 7:25pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,810 posts

Knight

but I'm not surprised that you are pro-abortion since you like a movie in which newborn babies are raped and tortured.


It's not being pro-abortion, its being pro-choice. One can be against the idea of having an abortion in many if not all cases but still be for allowing others to decide whether they want to go through the procedure or not.
 

Posted May 9, '14 at 7:31pm

Freakenstein

Freakenstein

9,646 posts

Moderator

I know this is a bit off topic, but I'm not surprised that you are pro-abortion since you like a movie in which newborn babies are raped and tortured.


Not to mention that this post was so Ad Hominem it made me spit out my tea.
 

Posted May 10, '14 at 1:03am

Kennethhartanto

Kennethhartanto

248 posts

but I'm not surprised that you are pro-abortion since you like a movie in which newborn babies are raped and tortured.


How subjective, just because he liked a movie where newborn babies are raped and tortured doesn't mean He likes torturing and raping babies / aborting one. If you like watching the movie Iron Man 3, does that meant you like blasting people's home to pieces?
 

Posted May 10, '14 at 1:22am

Kennethhartanto

Kennethhartanto

248 posts

Yes, but your still depriving it from becoming a person, so it's the same thing as murder technically (taking away its potential life).


Using your logic, i can say that you are unconsciously murdering almost 3.5 million Humans everytime you had sexual intercourse, because every time you did that, only one sperm ( a potential human) survived, the rest killed by the acid environment and various environmental effects on the womb. So, the mother murdered 3.5 million "humans", right?

But them doesn't not too, for they will soon.


using your logic, that would imply that every sexual cells that man and woman produced should all be fertilized, because if they are not fertilized they would be dead and that would be similar to killing a "potential human".

That's what I is a doing now to, grammar expert.


Not good enough, run it again.

I read it. That's how. ;D


provide your evidence and opinion as to why you agree to it. you can't just read it and say it was better.

Dang, I am good
 

Posted May 10, '14 at 2:00am

SportShark

SportShark

1,109 posts

Using selfish logic to suit your nit picking on a subject that people with a conscious and common sense know is wrong, is wrong. And by nit picking I mean singling out insignificant details and making them the focal point to make me look bad as if I represent all pro-life people.

provide your evidence and opinion as to why you agree to it. you can't just read it and say it was better.

Ok, read it and compare it with this:
Using your logic, i can say that you are unconsciously murdering almost 3.5 million Humans everytime you had sexual intercourse, because every time you did that, only one sperm ( a potential human) survived, the rest killed by the acid environment and various environmental effects on the womb. So, the mother murdered 3.5 million "humans", right?

Contraception and killing a fetus are two entirely different things. Yes, technically you do arrive at this conclusion when using logic, but you are blind to the facts that first must be assumed to be true before you can proceed with the logical method and hope to come to the correct answer. In a nutshell, your logic will continue to be irreparably flawed until you wake up to the facts.

Dang, I am good.

Kisses,

/// Mastaplaya ///


last edited May 10 2014 02:02 am by SportShark
 

Posted May 10, '14 at 2:26am

Kasic

Kasic

5,746 posts

on a subject that people with a conscious and common sense know is wrong


It's always unproductive to make these kinds of claims. People have different views and it's just not the case that everyone who doesn't share yours is an amoral monster.

My question to you themastaplaya is how is it justifiable to abort in cases of rape and incest if you think it's unquestionably wrong to do so in other situations? Or do you believe that all abortion is murder and wrong?
 
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