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[duplicate]Atheism, Secularism and all that

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Posted Jun 20, '12 at 11:31am

1138

1138

50 posts

So, what is your opinion on religion and secularism?
I am an atheist as long as I can remember and cannot understand people who think that religious leaders should hold political power. Also, I don't see why creationism is once again taught in Texas, Louisiana, New Hampshire, Kansas and Tenessee. Gradual Evolution is the best proven theory in the world and I dön't understand why anyone would put up a totally unscientific theory against it.
But actually, which is far worse, in my opinion is that religion, especially Islam and Christianity, are on their way to turn back progeress in science, society and politics. Also, the bible is not a source of morality, rather a collection of tales from a time in which Mind-Crime was real.
The American Taliban are on a good way to turn America into a theocratic country, whereas the historical heritage had always been tolerance and secularism towards religion. I would well like to hear your opinions.

 

Posted Jun 20, '12 at 12:11pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

11,853 posts

Knight

Thread has been made before. But for the sake of addressing such militant atheism is worth writing something.

especially Islam and Christianity, are on their way to turn back progeress in science, society and politics.

I call BS on this. Not all Christians and Muslims are puritanical, and take their texts at face value. America seems quite an anomaly, a country which has major demographics that are quite puritanical. But the point I'm getting at, is that there are vast numbers of scientists past and present, who believe in religion, yet don't allow that to tangle their work up. The media rarely mention the fact that the great majority of religious people belong to moderate denominations that treat science with respect, or the fact that the great majority of scientists treat religion with respect so long as religion does not claim jurisdiction over scientific questions.

Also, I don't see why creationism is once again taught in Texas, Louisiana, New Hampshire, Kansas and Tenessee. Gradual Evolution is the best proven theory in the world and I dön't understand why anyone would put up a totally unscientific theory against it.

If one is taught, the other can be allowed to be taught, and it's p to the child to decide. You claim to want open-mindedness, but by virtue of not teaching or exposing children to both sides of the coin , is already being parochial and narrow-minded.

Also, the bible is not a source of morality, rather a collection of tales from a time in which Mind-Crime was real.

For all that people say that morals from the Bible are not solely Christian, and can be learnt elsewhere, what's so wrong about being reminded of them via religion itself?

The American Taliban are on a good way to turn America into a theocratic country,

As stated earlier, America is a curious case of touting itself as liberal and freedom loving, yet having one of the world's largest evangelical community. Evangelicism has made itself into politics, especially during the Bush era, where he had to pander to them, yet survey data shows that 60"75% of evangelicals reject proposals for a Christian America. We should also not forget that the numbers of atheists/agnostics/what-not are rising. I don't think it's on it's ''good way'' to turn it into a theocratic country, so much so as it's getting stronger.

All in all, there's no need to proselytize atheism, just keep it to yourself, and save smarmy comments only when religious folk approach you. Virulently and actively attacking religious people without any provocation is as hypocritically perverse as when zealots try to convert souls on their crusade. If you truly believed in tolerance and freedom, then let them be unless attacked.

 

Posted Jun 20, '12 at 1:20pm

partydevil

partydevil

5,090 posts

I call BS on this.

i agree that it are not the people of those believes.
but i have to agree whit the OP that the religious leaders and the way/reasons why these religions are in the news is because they hold back society and/or do things that the avarage person does not agree whit (religious and non-religious)

If one is taught, the other can be allowed to be taught, and it's p to the child to decide.

i agree if those kids learn the basics of science and learn that religions are VERY often not (never) right.
but if those kids learn that creationism is the same as science, i feel realy bad for them. because they do not get proper education.

(i personaly think creationism/religion should be banned from all schools and governments. but thats just me.)

America is a curious case of touting itself as liberal and freedom loving

did you hear the news that the usa asked google most often to remove things from the search engine. so it can barly be found anymore. even china or russia asked google less to censor things.
land of the free, my *** ;)

 

Posted Jun 20, '12 at 1:30pm

thebluerabbit

thebluerabbit

2,914 posts

Also, I don't see why creationism is once again taught in Texas, Louisiana, New Hampshire, Kansas and Tenessee. Gradual Evolution is the best proven theory in the world and I dön't understand why anyone would put up a totally unscientific theory against it.

i think that both should be taught. the children (and their parents) will eventually be those who will decide whats true and whats another theory but at least they will have the knowledge of both. we only learned the basic (really basic) idea of evolution and i guess the same goes with creationism. i also dont think they should let the children decide because since its such a sensitive subject some parents will be really harsh towards the children if they decide to learn the one they disagree with.

 

Posted Jun 20, '12 at 1:38pm

Salvidian

Salvidian

3,950 posts

did you hear the news that the usa asked google most often to remove things from the search engine. so it can barly be found anymore. even china or russia asked google less to censor things.
land of the free, my *** ;)

The USA has been censoring things since it was found independent. It really tiffs of your John Locke, doesn't it? In most cases, it's for the greater good. I last heard the government asking Google to remove pages dealing with making household chemicals into bombs.

i agree if those kids learn the basics of science and learn that religions are VERY often not (never) right.
but if those kids learn that creationism is the same as science, i feel realy bad for them. because they do not get proper education.

The more you know the farther you go.
:P
Seriously though, I still think religion should be taught somewhere along the line. It should be giving with considering to the children, instead of cramming it down their throats. Besides, when they see both sides of the spectrum, then they are able to take the evidence of both sides and decide which one they are more into. People not seeing things on either sides is happening throughout the entire world. The best example I can think of is racial intolerance. People were raised thinking they are very different from someone, at that their difference is their enemy, when they may be closely related.

(i personaly think creationism/religion should be banned from all schools and governments. but thats just me.)

It currently is in the education department, except for private schools, whom have the right to teach whatever the hell they want as long as the academic value is up to par. You're never going to find a US government completely free of religion. America was founded on religious tolerance.

For all that people say that morals from the Bible are not solely Christian, and can be learnt elsewhere, what's so wrong about being reminded of them via religion itself?

Indeed. Frankly, people are sometimes against this because they don't believe the "religious" part of the Bible, and automatically assume it's all bull-honkey.

 

Posted Jun 20, '12 at 2:23pm

partydevil

partydevil

5,090 posts

I last heard the government asking Google to remove pages dealing with making household chemicals into bombs.

aslong the anarchy cooking book is still available somehwere. it doesn't realy matter. people wanting to do those things will find it anyway.

Seriously though, I still think religion should be taught somewhere along the line.

i can agree whit that. but not just 1 religion. if you show them religion. show them all or atleast the biggest 5 or so. and learn them about dead religions aswell.
it doesn't have to be much but atleast enoufg to show them that it doesn't matter because they probably all are wrong. (to many to choose from)
and teach science in other classes.

You're never going to find a US government completely free of religion. America was founded on religious tolerance.

i'm so happy i aint from the usa. =D
religion should not be the base of any law. let alone founded on it.
(however i did hear storys that it isn't and the the religious parts became part of the usa government in a later stage)

 

Posted Jun 20, '12 at 2:31pm

Salvidian

Salvidian

3,950 posts

i can agree whit that. but not just 1 religion. if you show them religion. show them all or atleast the biggest 5 or so. and learn them about dead religions aswell.
it doesn't have to be much but atleast enoufg to show them that it doesn't matter because they probably all are wrong. (to many to choose from)
and teach science in other classes.

I didn't necessarily mean show them religion so they can disprove it. I meant teach them about religion so they know what it's about. Of course, the main ones they would most likely teach would be Christianity, the Islamic faith, the Judaism, Greek, and Pagan. The first 3 would be some nice modern-day religions to teach because they apply to so many different types of people. Greek and Pagan are nice because they include ideas that many dead religions contain. They just have more than others.

i'm so happy i aint from the usa. =D
religion should not be the base of any law. let alone founded on it.
(however i did hear storys that it isn't and the the religious parts became part of the usa government in a later stage)

You didn't quite understand what I meant, which is understandable considering you're not from America. The US government wasn't founded  on religion, but religious tolerance, meaning people can't be discriminated against for their religious beliefs. It's another way of saying you can believe what you want, and that was a main idea of what America was supposed to be: a place where you can spread your religion without government interference.

 

Posted Jun 20, '12 at 2:47pm

partydevil

partydevil

5,090 posts

I didn't necessarily mean show them religion so they can disprove it.

i did.

the main ones they would most likely teach would be

lets add buddhism and/or hinduism aswell. they are more different then the 3 youve said wich all have the same god. and maybe voodoo to show them how religions people think are dead actualy are still there in small numbers.
and what about scientology... to show them how any1 can start a realigion. and that it is all a scam.

a place where you can spread your religion without government interference.

and they spread it sofar that it is used for political debate lately.
-stemcells
-abortion
-homosexuality

the government should not listen to this and make their own decisions.

 

Posted Jun 20, '12 at 2:57pm

Salvidian

Salvidian

3,950 posts

lets add buddhism and/or hinduism aswell. they are more different then the 3 youve said wich all have the same god. and maybe voodoo to show them how religions people think are dead actualy are still there in small numbers.
and what about scientology... to show them how any1 can start a realigion. and that it is all a scam.

Buddhism and Hinduism are quite different, but I suppose they'd be nice additions. I didn't think of them. Voodoo is unneeded because it is very similar to Pagan. Scientology isn't an actual "religion," per say, but an explanation of what religion can do. I don't think that should be taught, because it is so biased against the other religions, and the other religions don't have much to say about the others.

and they spread it sofar that it is used for political debate lately.
-stemcells
-abortion
-homosexuality

the government should not listen to this and make their own decisions.

I think I'm going to cry at your ignorance of the American government. The US is a democracy, based of the ideas of John Locke and Rouuseau, the Constitution states that the government is for the people and by the people, meaning the people (or citizens) control it. If the people are split up into atheists who support these things and Christians (since America's most popular religion is Christianity) who are obviously against these things, then the government is also split up concerning these issues. Frankly, it's a war between atheists and theists concerning whether or not to make these things legal and a part of modern-day society. All of these things do some sort of good, but they also go against the Bible.

Do you understand why the government can't do whatever the hell it wants?

 

Posted Jun 20, '12 at 3:00pm

1138

1138

50 posts

I see your point that the US is not completely militant extremist christian, however, the politics become more and more influenced by religious opinions. If you look at the politicians who are successful at the moment in the US, they all are, in my opionion, rather radical christian.

Also, creationism is not proven or even plausible in ANY instance observed. Instead, darwinian evolution is proved to be the most likely explanation for the genesis of life.

As an example, Germany, where I live, has a strict separation of church and state. We nearly do not have any religioiusly founded laws. Germany is an example of successful secularism. On the other hand, bush famously said: "NO SIR, I don't believe that atheists can be good Americans as they don't recognise the values this country was built upon."
I didn't say, there are more and more christians in america, I just say they become more and more radical.