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The Israeli Immigrants problme

Posted Jun 21, '12 at 12:06pm

danielo

danielo

1,748 posts

what is your opinion on the situation?

and for anyone who dont know what im talking about:

in the last period of time, allot of Immigrants from africa, Particularly from Eritrea and South Sudan, are coming By the thousands to Israel. i know, in the scale of USA or France its not sound like very much, but to a state of 7m its alot.

i personaly think that we need to help to the ones who need, like to who who flel from erittea, and banning people from hiring them is not a way to make them stop. but in the other hand, we cant dangre the Jewish majority in Israel {no matter how open for other peoples and how i want us all to live in a "Global Village", Israel is the only home for the jewish peoples}, and letting to entire africa to come over just wont work.

even more, im against the racism that start to bubble in the streets.
most of them go to south Tel-aviv, wher the local are also poor {its kind of our "Poor neighborhoods" [not Tin shacks, but you know what i say}, so ther is a lack of jobs anyway in these areas.
and ther are the Cultural differences, or immagrante problemse.
for first, the citzenes of these cities complain about rising level of Crime in the streets, thiefs who robing phones, money, and for serveral times raping.
i know that its not the majority, and that The media puf it up, but as any immigrant in the history, these mans come with nothing, so they almost have no choise. and as any immigrante too, they drink. and get drunk. and so the troublse begins.

{and for teh anti-israeli here - no, not just the bad jews do it, in the arab villages ther is also hatred for them. the beduiens in eygept, sinai who Smuggling them to Israel doing realy bad things for them in ther way, and the eygeptien soliders, well, they dont give them water and bring them to ther bases. more like shooting at them}.

i am against any rascism in these {which start to rise her ugly head in stuff like "these ******s are all thiefs and Rapists" and "africans to africa".

i think that we need to Cooperate with south sudan and help them build a better home for the immagrante. my dream is to get to the diplomatic servise {after my Military service} and start making these connections. but The solution is not to make them want to leave by terror. what happen now is that if a Illegal immigrant declear that we want to leave with will, he get 800 euro and help in his homeland, and sent home. if the police capture him, he get there without the help. its not the best Solution, but its better than other Solutions.

what do you think should be the Solution?

 

Posted Jun 21, '12 at 12:32pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,243 posts

Knight

My viewpoints are split. Firstly, immigration has to be limited to the extent that the host country is willing to accept or can sustain them. This is due to economics, and putting your own citizens first before others, since the government's duties are towards it's own people. If there are rising crime rates, and citizens are unhappy about that, the state has to find ways to deal with them, either by limiting immigration, and increasing worker productivity, such that allowing more migration is not needed to keep the economy running.

Seeing that Israel is a small state, of course immigration is needed, but only if it's own population is insufficient to support the state. I.e, you need a cheap labour force for menial jobs, yet no citizen wants to do it.

I might agree with you that immigration must be limited, but not because of the same reason you gave, i.e the whole ''Jewish'' identity has to be maintained point.

we cant dangre the Jewish majority in Israel


Artificially keeping a demographic in the majority is neither democratic nor sustainable. Even without the immigrants, sooner or later, if current patterns occur, Israeli Arabs will outnumber Israeli Jews. A Constitution that bases itself on one sole ethnic identity is wickedly false and undemocratic. A Jewish State might be unique and the sole one in the world, but if the Jewish majority one day becomes the Jewish minority, it would be wholly unfair to force the whole ''State is Jewish'' concept on the majority non-Jewish Israelie.
 

Posted Jun 21, '12 at 3:12pm

thebluerabbit

thebluerabbit

5,378 posts

its a really sad problem. i personally never witnessed any problems with the sudans (not sure for the english word) and i dont know anyone who have. still the racism is everywhere (espacially here where there are tons of them). i pretty much at least one racist comment a day about them (and that includes my own family). im not really a politician or know a lot about our economy etc. so what im saying might be impossible or stupid but i think that if they are going to let them in they at least have to support them and give them some basic needs until they can start supporting themselves.

you cant complain about people not acting like everybody else when they clearly have much less then you.

 

Posted Jun 22, '12 at 7:59am

danielo

danielo

1,748 posts

i think, nicudemos, that this is quite unfair to "make" them be to do the menial jobs. no one want to work in these jobs, but yet they are very needed. in Israel, ther is almost no labor. everyone work in medium-high class jobs, and we are basicly counter on the arabs and Thai [from Thailand].

there is a large scale campigane now in the TV, for hiring mans from the arabic, Circassian and the Druze Sector, and the Gov' even give Incentives for doing so.

I know that the demografical problme is quite undemocratic, but thats why its a problme.
Israel is based on a line with 2 end {you dont say?!} - jewdisem and democracy. in this questions, the two ends clash.
if, for say, 15 millions jamaicans will immigrate to singapor. right now, isnt that will make problmes? arent peoples will say that its destroiend the singaporian culture?
I dont want to be arrogant, but you cant realy understand this without being in this place. i am against any action to hurt democracy, and every time someone talk against any "race" {awful word, isnt it? i hate using it myself}, im the first to charge in. I am known in my school as "the left winger", when the, how to say it, the less Intellectuals and smart peoples are left winger - "we need to kill all the arabs / i dont care about the UN / etc /", Constantly arguing with them } , even when 7 guys circle me and ask me why "i love arabs and hate Israel". but it is a problme.

my grandmother was born befor the establishment of Israel. she fought {yes, fought} in the Indipendence war and built the village {moshav in hebrew} in which i live {moshav orot, look it in wikipedia}.

we dont have any other place in the world. sometimes its look like the world is calming down and get opener {is that a word?}, but see what happen in france, jewish boys get bitt in the street for beign jews. is ther any place wher a jew can be proud for his "race"? for his culture without fearing from groups who want to hurt him?
its our homeland, and im going to the army to defende it.
I am against war, but i wont accept surrender. I dont want to lose Israel, but im willing to give the west bank and even more grounds to the arabs for peace. and there are more peoples like me in Israel, and even that the ones who are against it are louder, i belive that ther is still a majority who want peace.
peace, not Submission.

but back to the topic.

what a nation should do? after what happened in the Holocaust, i think that sending them back to the place which they fled from is quite hypocrite. but what are the other choises? the Statistics shows that in The current migration stream, ther will be 600k immigrante from africa in Israel in 2015. and the one who flee to Israel are not the educated or the Prosperous, but the poor mans from the villages, who look for a better future. what currnetly happene is that we let them stay for a while, in which they get expirience in jobs like lexigraphy and in maintaininge small buisness, and then send them back, as i said, with 800 euro.

but is ther a better Solutions?

 

Posted Jun 22, '12 at 8:50am

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,243 posts

Knight

Israel is based on a line with 2 end {you dont say?!} - jewdisem and democracy. in this questions, the two ends clash.
if, for say, 15 millions jamaicans will immigrate to singapor. right now, isnt that will make problmes? arent peoples will say that its destroiend the singaporian culture?


No, I am not against immigration, I am against mass immigration. It is quite ridiculous to give an example of ''15 million'' Jamaicans swamping a country suddenly. But if Jamaicans, over a long long period of time somehow become the dominant culture, then it will become the dominant culture.

The issue about the Jewish character of the state is a separate issue from immigration. I don't support a country that has its constitution based on one single ethnicity.

we dont have any other place in the world. sometimes its look like the world is calming down and get opener {is that a word?}, but see what happen in france, jewish boys get bitt in the street for beign jews. is ther any place wher a jew can be proud for his "race"? for his culture without fearing from groups who want to hurt him?



Israel has a problem of defining itself officially based on one ethnic culture, and almost no other country does that. Singapore bases itself on a constructed Singapore identiy, where all races have an equal say, and no single race, no matter how much in the majority it is, will become the State identity. We have a close to 80% Chinese population, yet we do not define ourselves based on Chinese-ness.

America has a slight majority in terms of Caucasians, yet, again it does not define itself as a White America. Yet Israel does. Thus, it is not compatible with democracy in the long run, when non-Jewish births outstrip Jewish ones.

Creating a Jewish identity and projecting it just because the rest of the world has no Jewish majority country when the Jews become a minority is undemocratic, and marginalizes the majority.
 

Posted Jun 22, '12 at 10:23am

danielo

danielo

1,748 posts

but this is only because of the mainstream today. dont you hear the yelling of "hungary for the hungarians"? "france for the french"? they are rising ther head again. in time of peace, sure, why not. but when there is the smallest thing to scare the mass, the minorities are the first to get it.
French is getting less and less french as time passed. In one hand, i dont care, but when the immigrantes start to becom that loud and violante, wanting to becoume the dominating part, its not ok.

because a Israel with a major of arabs wont be Israel. i dont see the new leaders caring for the jewish if it will happen. do you? hamas will say "ok, we won, now lets live in peace"?

 

Posted Jun 22, '12 at 10:29am

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,243 posts

Knight

but this is only because of the mainstream today. dont you hear the yelling of "hungary for the hungarians"? "france for the french"? they are rising ther head again. in time of peace, sure, why not. but when there is the smallest thing to scare the mass, the minorities are the first to get it.


Yes, but the difference is that the idea of being ''French'' or ''Hungarian'' is a wholly different concept from being ''Jewish''. If Israel wants to be inclusive and truly democratic for its citizens it would call for its people to be ''Israeli'', with that Israeli identity being one that is not wholly Jewish.

French is getting less and less french as time passed. In one hand, i dont care, but when the immigrantes start to becom that loud and violante, wanting to becoume the dominating part, its not ok.


The French values of liberty, equality, fraternity, secularism etc are what defines a French person. They don't use Christianity (religion), or say being Breton (ethnicity) as a defining value. Israeli uses Jewishness (Religion, ethnicity) as a defining value.

because a Israel with a major of arabs wont be Israel. i dont see the new leaders caring for the jewish if it will happen. do you? hamas will say "ok, we won, now lets live in peace"?


No, I don't see why Hamas should have a say in the Israeli government; however, you do have Jewish parties like the Balad Party calling for an Israeli state that does not base itself on Jewishness. All parties should care for Israel as a state, and all Israelis, but by doing it based on ''Jewishness'' as a defining characteristic is not being fair and democratic, since there is clearly favouritism.
 
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