Debate_TheUnknown1
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View all comments »nicenicejt says:
Posted at 7:57pm on 10/27/2008
the iniverse expanding that may be true but if the universe is expanding it was probably much smaller before like real small and yet two things expanding its the sun people say the sun will expand so much even the earth will go into it but not likly people say that the whole universe is expanding but they only look in our area there not look everywhere so it might not be expanding everywhere just here so maybe the universe isnt unlimited the universe is very large there is a galaxy beside us called andromedia (bigger than ours)but i just saying that its a fact
FACTS: nearest big galaxy andromeadia about 5000 light years away short form ly
closest star exept for the sun prioxima centauri
farthest dwarf planet (its not pluto) sedna 3 time further than pluto the coldest place we know
farthest planet it neptune
the first blackhole seen was called cygnus x1 a stellar mass black hole
eris the dwarth planet is the biggest dwarf planet the smallest moon for a planet is nix it is only a few kilometers big
pluto and charon together are as big as the united states
ok i know more facts the my fingers are getting tired of all this typing
shadedclan says:
Posted at 3:00am on 10/24/2008
The universe what comes in mind when you hear this word? I would say home to all the homes. It may be ridiculous but it is true that we live in the earth and the earth lives in the milky way and the milky way lives in the universe. So to sum it up my first saying that all I said is a little bit far off from the debate which is the expanding universe
Okay now getting back to the world. Stars for an example they live and die so if one star would die then a new star will be born. So the space of the universe to the stars is fixed. Just like some games I remember interactive buddy i set the max to 40 items on the screen. Then I clicked the mouse like there was no tomorrow so when i got to the middle of clicking I seemed to notice the other objects seem to disappear when every I click the mouse to create a new object. So the space to the objects is fixed. So to conclude this is that the universe might not expand because the stars are at its maximum because for an example the stars right now is I don't know 50 billion. So if 1 star will die then it will create a black hole or a dwarf star. If the black hole has already used its stored energy to pull in the other objects it will explode creating another star which returns to the cycle of stars and same to the dwarf star. so you see it might be impossible for the universe to expand
Moegreche says:
Posted at 10:36pm on 9/23/2008
Going back to the balloon metaphor, you have an ever expanding universe (i.e. you keep blowing up the balloon). There is no outside force to stop the balloon from expanding further (like a wall or something) and the same can be said for the universe. Your question "what happens when matter hits the outer boundary?" would indicate that there is a wall which stops expansion. But remember that we are all on the surface of the balloon, thus we represent one edge of the universe that is constantly expanding.
Current physics tells us that either the universe will continue to expand, propelled by dark energy, until the gravitational forces holding solar systems together are negligible. At this point, the universe and everything in it will experience a very cold remainder of existence.
A second alternative is that the universe will not be able to overcome its own gravitational pull and will slam back on itself into a singularity. The math for both scenarios is very very close but current predictions have the universe expanding past this gravitational limit.
Now, certainly the concept of infinity exists mathematically, but this is not a number that is tangible. Infinity isn't even just a really really big number - it simply is a concept to represent a construct in an artificial system. Things like repeating decimals are actually solved in the real world through certain mathematical laws such as the law of infinitesimals.
But again, mathematics is a system that has no real construct in the world - it is simply used to interpret the world into something more systematic.
As for the 3K radiation, whether or not you think that represents the edge of the universe, the fact that it is observed in all directions means that the big bang occurred in all directions. The only way this could happen would be if the universe started out as a singularity and then expanded from that.
This fact, coupled with real observable data on red shifts of every cellestial body accelerating away from us is an incredibly concrete proof of universal expansion, and thus universal finiteness.
Skite says:
Posted at 9:14pm on 9/23/2008
"By universe, I mean everything in existence with which we can interact."
I would like to second this, with a universe we can not interact, there is no way to count that as 'finite' or 'infinite.
By finite, yes, we are arguing about our world having an outer boundary. With this, i would like to present a more accurate proposal of the universe's expansion. As you mentioned, our universe is continuing to expand uniformly. My huge question to you about this is, what happens when matter hits the outer boundary? Do you propose eventually planets and stars are just going to hit a wall? This just doesn't seem plausible to me. If some part of the universe just hit a wall, wouldn't the rest of the universe eventually start colliding with it? With the amount of time the 'universe has existed' why hasn't this happened?
Also, the 3k radiation we detect, doesn't necessarily mean that is the boundary of the universe. That part may just not have made it very far yet. Just as we expand only at a certain pace, it may do the same. There may be some so far we cant detect it.
Think of math when the universe comes into mind. If you take 10 divided by 3, you get 3.33333333-so on. That number has an infinite number of 3's at the end. If simple math numbers can create infinites, why couldn't the universe be the same way? Most people think of everything has to at some point just come to an end, especially something as important as the universe.
It may be hard to think of something as never ending, but some of these arguments show it possible, and I propose the same for the universe.
Moegreche says:
Posted at 4:04pm on 9/20/2008
I think the picture you have presented of the universe's expansion isn't quite accurate. I will present 2 arguments that will show the universe is finite; but a few definitions first.
By universe, I mean everything in existence with which we can interact. This is not really an inclusive definition, but rather an exclusive one. Namely, I want to exclude other universes (a multiverse) because presumably we cannot interact with those other universes. Also, by the very language we use to differentiate between this and other universes, it seems that we already presuppose that they "don't count."
By finite, I mean with an end/outer boundary, which I assume is the crux of both of our arguments.
I will support the universe's finiteness with 2 proofs.
1) If the universe were infinite, then it would have had to already exist in some sort of stasis (at least as a whole) for all time. But we see evidence of this expansion, although your point is not incompatible with the notion of expansion. However, our evidence shows that the entire universe is expanding uniformly (at a rate indicated by Hubble's constant), not just our sector or galaxy in the universe.
2) We can actually observe the edge of the universe as the remnants of the Big Bang in the form of 3K radiation. The fact that we can see the remnants of the Big Bang in all directions is a huge point - if the universe were somehow finite and the Big Bang caused all matter within this predefined space to exist, then we would see this radiation only in the "center" of the universe.
Picture our universe like a balloon that is blowing up. Put a bunch of dots on the balloon and that is a decent demonstration of how all matter in the universe is uniformly expanding. The universe would only be defined on the surface of the balloon, so there would not be an actual "center" which is exactly what we observe.
In summary, a finite universe would imply an initial stasis, which we do not observe. And we also are able to observe this edge of the universe in all direction, indicating that the entire thing is expanding.
A link about 3K blackbody radiation:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/bkg3k.html
On the Hubble Constant:
http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/~huchra/hubble/