Just checked on the Iran thread, and PartyDevil has gone full-fledged Dutch National.

You should definately give Mills a try. Some of his views/ideas are a bit out there, but he's not called the Father of Utilitarianism for no good reason. Mills, Machiavelli, and Hobbes are my big three in philisophy.

I'll need to read Dialogues then, since I have read The Art of War. But I aggree with you fully on The Prince. Even without knowing the history behind it, a few red flags stick out. Namely, how can arming a people you repress endear them to you? It would seem Machiavelli was hoping Lorenzo would be deposed by the people of Florence. XD

I tend to agree more with Hobbes on this one. I like the Tabula Rasa idea, but side with Hobbes in that man is evil, and will be naturally inclined to so evil. The blank slate only determines how far we slide down given our environment and such. But really, I'm too much of a cynic to really think Locke is anything more than an idealist. Look at any state with a weak government, and you'll find a state in chaos. Africa is a great case study.

My friend read Republic, and seemed to like it. I can't get into Greek Philosophy though. Its fun to read but serves very little practical value for the most part. I mean, when will you ever use Plato's "true treeness" in a debate? So I agree with you in that their value is more in their historical context then anything else. But Zeno's motion paradoxes are incredible to read should you get the chance.

I haven't read Bacon, and have never heard of Adler, so I will somehow have to find time to read them as well. You need to stop suggesting things for me to read, or else I won't have any time to do anything else!

And I think you should read "On Justice" by Rawls. Puts a different take onto the Locke/Hobbes debate. Sides more with Locke (Yuck!) but a good read nonethe less.

Well he just told me that he doesn't have to prove I'm a liar because... I'm a liar! Circular reasoning FTW! Wow, I can imagine that can be aggravating at times. What type of philosophy do you read? I'm into Mills, Hobbes and Machiavelli myself.

Don't play football anymore; concussions from being a quick tailbqck. :'( But thanks man, and good luck with your degree. I'm actually thinking about accounting myself, so I get where you're coming from.

I'll definately have to give it a read next chance I get then. Seems like he stole all my ideas! XD

Thanks for chipping in on the Iran thread. I was pretty much ready to beat my head against the wall. And as for my extreme 'Muhrica thing, I've found that in actual debates, if you present an extreme idea of what you want, while hiding your true intention, you can get people to compromise far more eaily. Whats more, they ussually wind up compromising on what you wanted in the first place! Real Politik and a basic understanding of human nature is something everyone should know. So theres my explination.

But aside from Ender's game, no, I havent read anything else of his. Which is a shame really, because I enjoyed the book. Unfortunately football took up most of my time, and now that I cant play and get a sports scholarship I'm determined to do well in my studies and bring up my As and Bs to just As. So my AP classes, plus some outside reading on political realism and capitalism, with a healthy dose of patriotism has shaped my views I'd say.

And you seem to really know your stuff, I learned a few things myself. Is this all from a career, or studies, or are you just a prolific reader?

can u join my group?

That's what it looks like now, it's such a pain :(