Forums → WEPR → Anarchism

no it was in somalia iself by uganda. (uganda does not border somalia)
they have started in somaliland and are going down. trying to spread the pirates from the ME.

somaliland has the wish that their faily in somalia will get a better, less violent life. if they could help whit that. they sure want to.

so? it's not the 1st time missions are done for nothing.
the somalian "government" is incapable. why try to fix that if there is already a alternative government existing?

your missing the point here.
i didn't say (like whit the marshall plan) that 1 country needs to pay for it.
i said that the UN, AU nations and other countrys that will profit from a stable somalia. need to fund it. thats over 70 countrys.
so the bill can be spread over 70 nations

and in the long run it will cost less then to protect the ships and only go past it in convoy.
that costs us billions per year.

I have a feeling we're not hitting the same issue here.

No, it is at it's core a separatist, breakaway movement that wants nothing to do and not be a part of Somalia due to historical reasons, such as different colonial rule.

Because it is viewed as the legitimate government that was elected.

and because progress has been made in extending it's control by AU troops.

It's nothing compared to say the American deficit which runs into trillions.

i dunno about this.
but wouldn't this be a good reason to acknowledge somaliland as a independent nation?

it's also seen that are incapable.

AU is the arabic union right?
where are their troops then?

in the long run (10 year or so) the total costs for those precautions will be more then the 16 trillion us debt

Although it doesn't declare so de jure, the world community does acknowledge that Somaliland is de facto an autonomous region.

Well, legitimacy has always been favored over that...

African Union. In Mogadishu.

Not a proven assertion.

sorry forgo to add source for the last part.

here you go =)

their troops are kenya in the south and uganda in the north?
beside that i don't see any african troops.

oke, i went on counting for this
2010 total costs was 8.3 billion.
this amount will dubble whitin a few years. so 10 years 16.6 billion is 166 billion.
i think we can press down piracy for that price.

You're not there literally seeing are you?

The African Union Mission in Somalia (AMISOM) is an active, regional peacekeeping mission operated by the African Union with the approval of the United Nations in Somalia. It is mandated to support transitional governmental structures, implement a national security plan, train the Somali security forces, and to assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid.

America's wars cost much more on that;

but almost all nations in the world recognize its de facto control tacitly and leave it alone.

his can be seen by the AU's and EU's actions by opening up conferences o eventually recognize it.

This is further seen When in 2010 Johnnie Carson, Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, stated that the United States would be modifying its strategy in Somalia and would seek deeper engagement with the governments of Somaliland and Puntland while continuing to support the Somali Transitional Government.

Carson said the US would send aid workers and diplomats to Puntland and Somaliland and alluded to the possibility of future development projects.

Again this is an assertion on the doubling part.

what i (literally) see is that their are not enough troops there and that they lack the materials needed to fight them effectively.

isn't politics nice?
allot of words, nothing happening.
national security plan - nice they have a plan but they are not able to.
somali security forces - it wont pay as much as piracy. 15.000 in their entire life vs 300.000 in 5 year.
so they do the training and then use what they learned as a pirate.
same happens in afghanistan where they simply infiltrate in these trainings.
assist in creating a secure environment for the delivery of humanitarian aid. - a hospital here and there? wont help defeat piracy.

well it's america. ofcourse it costs more.
i fail to see how we can compare usa whit africa if it comes to war costs.

show me plz.

in the meanwhile they have recognized multiple new countries. why can't they do so for somaliland? what is their reason?

they are not in somalia. they are only in the water protecting ships. (btw, puntland has no government. puntland = somaliland.)

and nice they support it. i support it aswell. these are just words, no actions.

somaliland don't need the development projects. they have a stable society. (1 of the very few in the region)

if they really wanna help somaliland. then they should recognize it as a nation. so other nations can't give the argument that no1 else recognizes them either. that would be a good 1st step.
instead they say empty words.

in 2005 the average ransom money was 150.000 dollar.
in 2010 the average ransom money was 5.4 million dollar.
more and more captains are taking the alternative route around africa. adding 3 weeks to their journey. almost dubbling the time from asian to europe.
saying it will dubble in a few year is a safe assumption. it most likely will do more then just dubble.

No one willingly sends their citizens to die overseas. We should be thankful the AU did something.

Piracy is at the bottom of their concerns list right now

there is a task force in the Gulf of Aden monitoring and rooting out piracy already.

The point was not a comparison, but that Ameirca and it's allies are already bogged down.

You don't see military action against them do you?

Because at it's roots, the Somaliland government broke away by force ad without a popular vote. Kosovo and South Sudan have had voting processes.

These words are just words, but they reflect te government attitude, instead of your claim that they outrightly reject them. What the USA is stating is that Somalia will become a greater priority.

Puntland is another region and is not Somaliland. It has it's own government it's president is a former PhD candidate in the history department at La Trobe University in Melbourne, Australia

It isn't a stable place.

It needs massive development projects; schools, water plants, roads, transport systems and the lot.

Something called global inflation.

there are far more pressing issues than another backwater African state on the plate of most nations.

then don't send people but atleast materials that they can use to fight time. like.. i dunno a plane or helicopter maybe?

piracy is a problem for so many people and nations. it shouldn't be at the bottom.

on the water yes. just to protect the ships.

america isn't the only army. heck america doesn't has much to do whit it. it's mainly a european and asian problem because it's on that route. so i would assume that china, japan, india and the netherlands would be some of the players that want the thread to be gone fast.
and those countries are not that busy whit war atm.

bombing the only safe place in somalia where not every single house is full whit bullet holes. would be stupid.
it has nothing to do whit recognizing it. it just common sense i guess.

how long did it take to recognize israel? somaliland is busy for 21 year now. does it realy take that long when is obvious they have a better and more stable government then the original country?

well puntland fought whit somaliland for independence. they have together build the "border" between them and somalia.
sorry that i thought they were still together.
but if people can recognize 1 of them, then 2 of them will be even harder i guess.

make a visit there
it's safe and stable. even more stable then congo.
in somaliland i don't have to fear for racists wanting to hurt me because of the color of my skin for example.

they already have that.

nflation of 3600% ?
global inflation is real but isn't this high.
beside pirates don't keep up whit the global inflation. they ask what they want and they always get what they want.
also are the costs for the alternative route almost dubble the normal price solely because it take dubble the time. and dubble the fuel. etc.
stating it will dubble is very safe.

Taxpayers' money again.

The UN count for land troops is currently 17000, a massive number.

Because many of these nations have already contributed ships.

Well, I almost went to Kenya but since the region was too unstable, cause of al shahab that it was cancelled. Says a lot.

But you said they didn't need.

pirate are already being hammered.

it assumes much trade goes through the region such that it poses a far more significant problem than it is.

The thread has spoken and it says
"Kill me please!"