How old do you think the universe is?

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5,556 posts

Jester

Posted May 6, '13 11:09pm UTC

As crazy as it may sound to some of you, this is what I believe.

The question is, why? Why do you believe this?

We have no evidence for that. We do, however, have massive amounts of evidence pointing to the universe being billions of years old, the sun being billions of years old, and the earth being billions of years old.

there was stuff before the earth was formed

Of course there was. The earth did not form until around 4.5 billion years ago. That leaves ~9.27 billion years of stuff happening before earth condensed and began to cool.

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Salvidian

4,170 posts

Farmer

Posted May 6, '13 11:25pm UTC

The question is, why? Why do you believe this?

I suppose I believe in the idea of there being a God because it doesn't seem feasible for me to have such a large proportion of the planet be so deeply rooted in the idea of there being one if the world worked the way that secularists believe. I mean, sure, culture and history has shown us that people have always believed in some sort of deity-like creator as a way to explain how things worked, but I don't think we* could be so loyal to religions when science permeates everything we're involved in. Plus, how could we* without something incredible, and religious, happening?

*In terms of the religious society.

The idea deriving from Cherokee beliefs comes from my wanting to explain how things work, I suppose. I wish there was a better way to explain it because I don't agree with Cherokee scripture or their post-creation beliefs, but as of right now there's no better way to explain it.

Of course there was. The earth did not form until around 4.5 billion years ago. That leaves ~9.27 billion years of stuff happening before earth condensed and began to cool.

I worded that sentence incorrectly. I meant to say, "before the universe was formed." Let it be some sort of pre-matter, actual matter, or whatever else it might be.

[quote]The question is, why? Why do you believe this?[/quote]\r\n\r\nI suppose I believe in the idea of there being a God because it doesn't seem feasible for me to have such a large proportion of the planet be so deeply rooted in the idea of there being one if the world worked the way that secularists believe. I mean, sure, culture and history has shown us that people have always believed in some sort of deity-like creator as a way to explain how things worked, but I don't think we* could be so loyal to religions when science permeates everything we're involved in. Plus, how could we* without [i]something[/i] incredible, and religious, happening?\r\n\r\n*In terms of the religious society.\r\n\r\nThe idea deriving from Cherokee beliefs comes from my wanting to explain how things work, I suppose. I wish there was a better way to explain it because I don't agree with Cherokee scripture or their post-creation beliefs, but as of right now there's no better way to explain it.\r\n\r\n[quote]Of course there was. The earth did not form until around 4.5 billion years ago. That leaves ~9.27 billion years of stuff happening before earth condensed and began to cool.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI worded that sentence incorrectly. I meant to say, "before the universe was formed." Let it be some sort of pre-matter, actual matter, or whatever else it might be.

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Kasic

5,556 posts

Jester

Posted May 6, '13 11:38pm UTC

I suppose I believe in the idea of there being a God because it doesn't seem feasible for me to have such a large proportion of the planet be so deeply rooted in the idea of there being one if the world worked the way that secularists believe. I mean, sure, culture and history has shown us that people have always believed in some sort of deity-like creator as a way to explain how things worked, but I don't think we* could be so loyal to religions when science permeates everything we're involved in. Plus, how could we* without something incredible, and religious, happening?

The old argumentum ad populum, then.

Why people hold religious beliefs is a very extensive subject, ranging from neurology, psychology, social behaviors and imagination.

The short and thick of it is that 99% of all people who are religious were indoctrinated into it by their parents from birth. They were taught that it was the truth and that faith (believing without proof) is to be praised. Moreover, religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach their believers that not following it leads to eternal punishment or, at the very least, not entering heaven (paradise). It provides a moral code and a sense of belonging, and creates an "in group" with which one can feel superior to others. That's religion, in a very ill defined nutshell.

but as of right now there's no better way to explain it.

If you do not know the answer, why believe anything? I'm not an atheist because I disbelieve God, or any gods, exist, but because I have not seen proof of them.

I don't know what came before the Big Bang. I don't know 'why' everything works as it does and not some other way. This doesn't mean I immediately subscribe to a god of the gaps argument, whereby I literally pick whatever unfounded belief tickles my fancy and 'feels' right.

If we don't know something, we try to find the answer. That's how we've found ourselves with the universe being 13.77 billion years old, the earth being 4.54 billion years old, and with every other aspect of science. We've proven claims and supported them with empirical evidence which anyone can test. We haven't, to be blunt, made crap up and ascribed to it without reason against all logical evidence because we've told ourselves it's the absolute truth, as religion does.

[quote]I suppose I believe in the idea of there being a God because it doesn't seem feasible for me to have such a large proportion of the planet be so deeply rooted in the idea of there being one if the world worked the way that secularists believe. I mean, sure, culture and history has shown us that people have always believed in some sort of deity-like creator as a way to explain how things worked, but I don't think we* could be so loyal to religions when science permeates everything we're involved in. Plus, how could we* without something incredible, and religious, happening?[/quote]\r\n\r\nThe old argumentum ad populum, then. \r\n\r\nWhy people hold religious beliefs is a very extensive subject, ranging from neurology, psychology, social behaviors and imagination. \r\n\r\nThe short and thick of it is that 99% of all people who are religious were indoctrinated into it by their parents from birth. They were taught that it was the truth and that faith (believing without proof) is to be praised. Moreover, religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach their believers that not following it leads to eternal punishment or, at the very least, not entering heaven (paradise). It provides a moral code and a sense of belonging, and creates an "in group" with which one can feel superior to others. That's religion, in a very ill defined nutshell. \r\n\r\n[quote]but as of right now there's no better way to explain it.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIf you do not know the answer, why believe anything? I'm not an atheist because I disbelieve God, or any gods, exist, but because I have not seen proof of them.\r\n\r\nI don't know what came before the Big Bang. I don't know 'why' everything works as it does and not some other way. This doesn't mean I immediately subscribe to a god of the gaps argument, whereby I literally pick whatever unfounded belief tickles my fancy and 'feels' right. \r\n\r\nIf we don't know something, we try to find the answer. That's how we've found ourselves with the universe being 13.77 billion years old, the earth being 4.54 billion years old, and with every other aspect of science. We've proven claims and supported them with empirical evidence which anyone can test. We haven't, to be blunt, made crap up and ascribed to it without reason against all logical evidence because we've told ourselves it's the absolute truth, as religion does.

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MageGrayWolf

9,470 posts

Farmer

Posted May 7, '13 12:37am UTC

Before all you science guys slap me around, I'd like to say that I also believe in a theory similar to what the Cherokee Indians believed: there was stuff before the earth was formed. God took that stuff and made our current universe.

We've demonstrated on small scale how this and other solar systems formed. No God required.
International Space Station Experiment: How dust and particles form planets

I suppose I believe in the idea of there being a God because it doesn't seem feasible for me to have such a large proportion of the planet be so deeply rooted in the idea of there being one if the world worked the way that secularists believe. I mean, sure, culture and history has shown us that people have always believed in some sort of deity-like creator as a way to explain how things worked, but I don't think we* could be so loyal to religions when science permeates everything we're involved in. Plus, how could we* without something incredible, and religious, happening?

This is more likely based on how human brains are wired.
"Why We Believe in Gods" Andy Thomson Lecture at American Atheists 09

I am a Roman Catholic so I believe the universe is roughly 6000 years old.

Our first piece of evidence that the earth is much older came from viewing the geological layers. As we developed other methods we found the earth was older still. Even the very fact we can see the stars that we can show the universe has to be much older. That is unless you believe in a God who is a liar.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/923389_496225577111639_1750849901_n.jpg

[quote]Before all you science guys slap me around, I'd like to say that I also believe in a theory similar to what the Cherokee Indians believed: there was stuff before the earth was formed. God took that stuff and made our current universe.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWe've demonstrated on small scale how this and other solar systems formed. No God required.\r\n[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLQCQuazeoE]International Space Station Experiment: How dust and particles form planets[/url]\r\n\r\n[quote]I suppose I believe in the idea of there being a God because it doesn't seem feasible for me to have such a large proportion of the planet be so deeply rooted in the idea of there being one if the world worked the way that secularists believe. I mean, sure, culture and history has shown us that people have always believed in some sort of deity-like creator as a way to explain how things worked, but I don't think we* could be so loyal to religions when science permeates everything we're involved in. Plus, how could we* without something incredible, and religious, happening?[/quote]\r\n\r\nThis is more likely based on how human brains are wired.\r\n[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcSXCeE4Bg#!]"Why We Believe in Gods" Andy Thomson Lecture at American Atheists 09[/url]\r\n\r\n[quote]I am a Roman Catholic so I believe the universe is roughly 6000 years old.[/quote]\r\n\r\nOur first piece of evidence that the earth is much older came from viewing the geological layers. As we developed other methods we found the earth was older still. Even the very fact we can see the stars that we can show the universe has to be much older. That is unless you believe in a God who is a liar.\r\n\r\n[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/923389_496225577111639_1750849901_n.jpg[/img]

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pangtongshu

9,808 posts

Jester

Posted May 24, '13 7:52pm UTC

Better question is HOW OLD GOD IS ?

Irrelevant question

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HahiHa

8,259 posts

Regent

Posted May 24, '13 8:00pm UTC

Indeed. If we know how old the universe is, we know the minimal age a creator deity would have to have if it existed.

Besides, an immortal being that has always existed and will always exist has no age... D'uh!

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EmperorPalpatine

9,442 posts

Jester

Posted May 24, '13 8:07pm UTC

but what does IRRELEVANT mean ?

Not relevant, unrelated, unhelpful, unproductive to the topic.

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Kasic

5,556 posts

Jester

Posted May 24, '13 8:08pm UTC

My english isn't perfect but what does IRRELEVANT mean ?

Has nothing to do with.
Not related.
Does not affect.
No importance to the subject.

How "old" God is has nothing to do with the age of the universe, because we have no evidence for God. We do have evidence that the universe is 13.77 billion years old - a deity is not involved as far as all available information goes.

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TerminatorXM214

222 posts

Blacksmith

Posted May 24, '13 9:22pm UTC

Me again. Hi.
First want to say why I left that other thread.
I said about 2-4 times that I wasn't there to convince anyone that God existed, or that the Bible was true. I said that I was there to try to convince any Christian/Bible believer that homosexuality was Biblically wrong. I left because people kept switching it around.

I'm glad that someone else believes basically what I do regarding the Earth's age. (in case you don't know, the someone is Salvidian)
I disagree on some points, but I want to ask a few questions to those of you who are Evolutionists and old-Earth believers:

First, Kasic said:

The short and thick of it is that 99% of all people who are religious were indoctrinated into it by their parents from birth

First, while this is the case with me, I didn't just lie down and believe it. I observed our world, our universe, and a lot more, and came to my own conclusion based on my own opinion. That conclusion lines up with the Bible.
But, I have to ask you, what were you indoctrinated with as a child? Were you raised believing that the Earth was 13 billion years old?

Question 2: You have mentioned proof of the universe being 13 billion years old. Please post it. (that wasn't much of a question, but :b)

Q3: Have you tested the Bible against what you see in life, the universe, and everything? Or have you just dismissed it, or even tested it against that proof you've mentioned?

Q4: What about God and the Bible would cause you to dismiss it, and turn towards Evolution?

Me again. Hi. \r\nFirst want to say why I left that other thread. \r\nI said about 2-4 times that I wasn't there to convince anyone that God existed, or that the Bible was true. I said that I was there to try to convince any Christian/Bible believer that homosexuality was Biblically wrong. I left because people kept switching it around.\r\n \r\nI'm glad that someone else believes basically what I do regarding the Earth's age. (in case you don't know, the someone is Salvidian)\r\nI disagree on some points, but I want to ask a few questions to those of you who are Evolutionists and old-Earth believers:\r\n \r\nFirst, Kasic said:\r\n[quote]The short and thick of it is that 99% of all people who are religious were indoctrinated into it by their parents from birth[/quote]\r\n \r\nFirst, while this is the case with me, I didn't just lie down and believe it. I observed our world, our universe, and a lot more, and came to my own conclusion based on my own opinion. That conclusion lines up with the Bible.\r\n[b]But, I have to ask you, what were you indoctrinated with as a child? Were you raised believing that the Earth was 13 billion years old?[/b]\r\n       \r\n             \r\nQuestion 2: [b]You have mentioned proof of the universe being 13 billion years old. Please post it[/b]. (that wasn't much of a question, but :b)\r\n               \r\nQ3: [b]Have you tested the Bible against what you see in life, the universe, and everything? Or have you just dismissed it, or even tested it against that proof you've mentioned?[/b]\r\n           \r\nQ4: [b]What about God and the Bible would cause you to dismiss it, and turn towards Evolution?[/b]

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HahiHa

8,259 posts

Regent

Posted May 24, '13 9:30pm UTC

Q4: What about God and the Bible would cause you to dismiss it, and turn towards Evolution?

Q5: What has that to do with this thread?

About the evidence, I'd suggest you start with this one, posted on page 18 of this thread, for example (or you could use your Google-Fu):
How old is the universe?

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pangtongshu

9,808 posts

Jester

Posted May 24, '13 9:41pm UTC

But, I have to ask you, what were you indoctrinated with as a child? Were you raised believing that the Earth was 13 billion years old?

I was not raised to believe that the Earth was 13 billion years old..nor was I raised to believe that the Earth was 6,000 years old. (at least, not by my parents).
I was taught, under church settings, that "God" created the Earth and all the other Biblical events..and for quite a while, I believed them.

You have mentioned proof of the universe being 13 billion years old. Please post it.

Correct me if I'm wrong..but I believe the link on the first page does a reasonable job at that

Have you tested the Bible against what you see in life, the universe, and everything? Or have you just dismissed it, or even tested it against that proof you've mentioned?

As I have just previously mentioned..I used to believe in the Bible and the events it portrayed.

What about God and the Bible would cause you to dismiss it, and turn towards Evolution?

Logic

[quote]But, I have to ask you, what were you indoctrinated with as a child? Were you raised believing that the Earth was 13 billion years old?[/quote]\r\n\r\nI was not raised to believe that the Earth was 13 billion years old..nor was I raised to believe that the Earth was 6,000 years old. (at least, not by my parents). \r\nI was taught, under church settings, that "God" created the Earth and all the other Biblical events..and for quite a while, I believed them. \r\n\r\n[quote]You have mentioned proof of the universe being 13 billion years old. Please post it. [/quote]\r\n\r\nCorrect me if I'm wrong..but I believe the link on the first page does a reasonable job at that\r\n\r\n[quote] Have you tested the Bible against what you see in life, the universe, and everything? Or have you just dismissed it, or even tested it against that proof you've mentioned?[/quote]\r\n\r\nAs I have just previously mentioned..I used to believe in the Bible and the events it portrayed. \r\n\r\n[quote]What about God and the Bible would cause you to dismiss it, and turn towards Evolution?[/quote]\r\n\r\nLogic

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Kasic

5,556 posts

Jester

Posted May 24, '13 10:00pm UTC

But, I have to ask you, what were you indoctrinated with as a child? Were you raised believing that the Earth was 13 billion years old?

I never heard a word about the earth's age until 6th grade. I was raised as a Christian, which taught that God created the world and universe.

Question 2: You have mentioned proof of the universe being 13 billion years old. Please post it.

Wikipedia article for basic information.

Technical data that you probably won't understand.

Simplest proof, The Red Shift Effect

Light only moves so fast. Stars are hundreds, thousands, or millions of years away within our galaxy alone.

Q3: Have you tested the Bible against what you see in life, the universe, and everything? Or have you just dismissed it, or even tested it against that proof you've mentioned?

I've read it and evaluated its claims. While it's impossible to disprove an open ended question of, "does something exist?" we can take specific claims and evaluate their accuracy.

Noah's Ark, for example, is probably the biggest load of crap anyone has ever come up with. There's not a single part of the story that is remotely possible if taken literally and it's completely pointless if not taken as such.

Q4: What about God and the Bible would cause you to dismiss it, and turn towards Evolution?

Erm, do you mean what would convince me evolution wasn't true? Or are you asking why I accept evolution?

I accept evolution because it has a massive amount of proof in multiple fields of science. Its concepts have been proven and we have observed micro and macro evolution (the latter on smaller scales) and use it daily.

The Bible/God have nothing to do with it.

[quote]But, I have to ask you, what were you indoctrinated with as a child? Were you raised believing that the Earth was 13 billion years old?[/quote]\r\n\r\nI never heard a word about the earth's age until 6th grade. I was raised as a Christian, which taught that God created the world and universe. \r\n\r\n[quote]Question 2: You have mentioned proof of the universe being 13 billion years old. Please post it. [/quote]\r\n\r\n[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe]Wikipedia article for basic information.[/url]\r\n\r\n[url=http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html]Technical data that you probably won't understand.[/url]\r\n\r\nSimplest proof, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift]The Red Shift Effect[/url]\r\n\r\nLight only moves so fast. Stars are hundreds, thousands, or millions of years away within our galaxy alone. \r\n\r\n[quote]Q3: Have you tested the Bible against what you see in life, the universe, and everything? Or have you just dismissed it, or even tested it against that proof you've mentioned?[/quote]\r\n\r\nI've read it and evaluated its claims. While it's impossible to disprove an open ended question of, "does something exist?" we can take specific claims and evaluate their accuracy.\r\n\r\nNoah's Ark, for example, is probably the biggest load of crap anyone has ever come up with. There's not a single part of the story that is remotely possible if taken literally and it's completely pointless if not taken as such. \r\n\r\n[quote]Q4: What about God and the Bible would cause you to dismiss it, and turn towards Evolution?[/quote]\r\n\r\nErm, do you mean what would convince me evolution wasn't true? Or are you asking why I accept evolution?\r\n\r\nI accept evolution because it has a massive amount of proof in multiple fields of science. Its concepts have been proven and we have observed micro and macro evolution (the latter on smaller scales) and use it daily.\r\n\r\nThe Bible/God have nothing to do with it.

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Salvidian

4,170 posts

Farmer

Posted May 24, '13 10:48pm UTC

Logic

...and?

The Bible/God have nothing to do with it.

Some interpret the beings in the creationist story as being the beings that live today. Therefore, they don't believe in evolution, like Terminator here.

I'm not one of those people. I believe in intelligent design.

and it's completely pointless if not taken as such.

How so? What if the story was completely made up by God's disciples to scare them into believing and worshiping God?

But, I have to ask you, what were you indoctrinated with as a child? Were you raised believing that the Earth was 13 billion years old?

No. My parents and I have opposing beliefs. I don't believe the current universe is anywhere near the billion year milestone whatsoever. I belief certain parts of it are older, or rather, from a previous universe (i.e. the "darkness" before time).

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Kasic

5,556 posts

Jester

Posted May 24, '13 10:49pm UTC

What if the story was completely made up by God's disciples to scare them into believing and worshiping God?

Bible is supposedly word of God. If there's stories made up just to scare people into believing that are in it, the entire underlying principle that it's God's word comes into question.

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Salvidian

4,170 posts

Farmer

Posted May 24, '13 10:53pm UTC

Bible is supposedly word of God. If there's stories made up just to scare people into believing that are in it, the entire underlying principle that it's God's word comes into question.

The thing is, the Bible wasn't written by God, nor was it approved by Him in any fashion. It's supposed to have been written by His disciples, who may or may not have made it for the intention of ensuing fear. But there's no way that could be proved or disproved. Yes, that means the entire Bible could have been made up, but I don't believe it was.

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