Discuss. General Tavern rules apply. (No mudslinging, be respectful, etc.) I'll open with the statement that people should not have guns. No one at all, except the armed forces, and even then, keep the guns on the bases. Cops should carry riot shields and armor instead of guns. If they need crowd control, use Water Cannons. Supporting evidence: the following skit: What's your reason? Setting: A gun shop, modern day. A Customer walks into the gun shop and asks the Shopkeeper, "Hi, i'd like to buy a gun please." The Shopkeeper pulls out an application form and asks the customer "Alright, what's your reason for wanting to buy a gun?" The Customer says "I need one for personal protection." The Shopkeeper nods. "I have just the thing for you, I guarantee you cannot get any more personal protection than this baby right here. What i'm about to show you offers so much protection, it can stop a shotgun shell." The customer, very interested, stares at a full-size Riot Shield, the kind the police use. He scoffs. "That's not what I want, I want a gun!" The Shopkeeper shrugs. "Are you sure? This fine piece of equipment will protect you more than a gun ever will! It's very strong, reinforced titanium and kevlar..." by now, the angry Customer has left. Later, another Customer enters. "Hi, I need a gun." Again, the Shopkeeper clicks his pen and pulls out an application form. "For what reason?" he asks. The Customer hesitates, than says "Hunting." The shopkeeper smiles. "Of course! I love to hunt. Hunting is a wonderful sport. I guarantee that this item will give you the maximum amount of satisfaction you can ever get from hunting! Here, this is the sport at its peak." And he pulls out a Crossbow, complete with crosshairs for better accuracy. The customer shakes his head. "No, I want a gun." he states. The shopkeeper reluctantly puts away the Crossbow. "Are you sure? With a gun, it's so...boring, just pulling a trigger. And it's unfair to the animal, with this you give the deer a chance and have to chase it for up to an hour, just like the Native Americans did back in the day! Unless of course..." He fails to finish his sentence, as the pissed off customer has left in a huff. Later, a third customer walks in. "Hi, I'd like to buy a gun." he says. The shopkeeper holds his pen at the ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks. The customer glares. "I dont need a reason, read the god **** second amendment "THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS." It's in the constitution you idiot! The shopkeeper merely smiles. "Of course, I have the perfect thing for you. This gun is covered under Second Amendment laws, guaranteed!" And he holds up a 200-year-old, civil-war-era musket, complete with rusty bayonet. The customer shrieks. "No, man! I want a Glock, a shotgun, something better than that civil war crap!" The shopkeeper merely smiles. "I'm sorry sir, please come back when they update the second amendment to include those types of guns. Here, i'll even give you a discount..." the shopkeeper holds out a discount to the enraged customer, who tears it in half and leaves. Fourthly, another Customer walks in. "I really need a gun, now." He says. The Shopkeeper holds his pen and application form ready. "For what reason, sir?" he asks. Instead of stating his reason this time, the Customer snatches the application form and looks at it. There, in the spot titled "Reasons" is a circle for "other". "Other! That's my reason!" the Customer declares triumphantly. The shopkeeper shrugs. "Very good answer sir." he says, while pressing a button under the counter. Two cops arrive at the shop in less than a minute and cuff the Customer. "Hey! What the *PROFANITY* ARE YOU *PROFANITY* GUYS DOING? I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG!" He yells, almost breaking the glass of the windows. "Actually, you have." The Shopkeeper begins. "the "other" reason, by exclusion of the other reason, can only include wanting to kill or rob someone. Therefore, you were thinking about commiting a crime when you selected "Other" as your reason. Caught you red-handed, trying to buy the tools necessary to commiting a crime. You confessed to it when you selected "Other"! Take him downtown, please." The cops nod and take the Customer away. The last thing he hears from the Shopkeeper is "Oh, and I knew it was you all those times!"
Moral of the story: You do NOT need a gun for a particular activity. In any given activity (And I challenge you to give me a valid, legal activity for which you would need to personally own a gun), there are many other options. Why buy a gun for personal protection when a Riot Shield blocks shotgun shells? Why buy a gun for hunting when the point of hunting (and every other sport) is satisfaction, and since you get more satisfaction with more challenge, and since a crossbow offers more challenge than a gun, you'll get more satisfaction with the crossbow. Why buy a gun based on the Second Amendment when the Colonial-age guns were either giant cannons or black-powder, muzzle-loading Muskets? Did the Founding Fathers have AR-15's, and SPAZ-12 shotguns,And AK 47s, not to mention all the accessories like laser scopes and hollow-point bullets? I dont think so!
The only way you can disprove my argument is to give me a valid, LEGAL activity which requires you to personally own a gun. This excludes Skeet-shooting, because the facility can and should/will provide the gun. Until anyone can do that, YOU DONT NEED A GUN, NO ONE NEEDS GUNS! They're WAY too dangerous and make it too easy to kill someone! Why have something you dont need?
How many criminals stick around after shooting someone? "Oh ****! It's the cops! I'll stand right here." Waiting for police is a huge plus.
but there were not witnesses.
With modern forensics, it's not too difficult to determine if your story adds up.
There's a good chance you'll get arrested then the overzealous prosecutor will call you a vigilante and you might very well end up in jail with the same scumbags you despise.
Because what is a Human life for a wallet? I got robbed once. By knife. I gave them my fake wallet {Im paranoid, but Its a good habbit. put in it some foreign change and a card of anything {i put there a old unused credit card and you are 'safe'}. And i can tell you, if i had a pistol on me, the momment he run away he would go kiss the road with a hole in his back. But i dont have one. So he got my wallet. So waht we got here? lets say, if the wallet was full, -100 Dollars, a credit card {which ill cancle immidietly}, maybe a ticket for something and some personal stuff. And if i had a gun? A DEAD PERSON. human life. is it worth it? i dont think so. The trial itself will cost more.
And about my 12 bullet theory, sure in training you will be able to buy more. But even if you have a Criminal in your house you wont need more then 12. You dont fight a Pirate assult. Its just a desperte man Do the best he can do to get money, if for drugs or for food.
Lets go to the basic. Why does a Criminal enter your house? he is not there to kill you. Man, he propebly hope you wont be at home at all! he just want to Get some money for something. Its not ideaoligy. he is not doing it to attack you. he dont care about you. that why he steal. He just want the cash. If you will point a gun at him, he will run away. He want to live for god sack. He want to get his next drug, he want to feed his family or himself. he is not there to fight. If he was a figher, he would propebly dont be in this place. Even if you will come out with a broom and yell he will go away. Sure, you wont get revenge, but is that what you want? revenge for your hurt dignity? Or you want your stuff? Think about it.
And for AatosLiukkonen and anyone who think that guns are fun. Sure they are. But also exploding stuff. Do the masses should be able to buy TNT for fun? Just to explode things? "sure" you will say, "im not a criminal". But what about the peoples who are criminals?! what about the crazy peoples who get guns and shoot peoples? the gun came oput legal somewher in his life. What does this gun even doing in a private person hands? They didnt made it. They didnt stole it from hte factory. The arm companies sell them to whoever will pay! They dont care if kids are getting killed, they just hear the sound of worrieng people who go buy guns to "trotect there families".
Lets say it again, In most of the scholar world, there are no guns. None. Almost none of the population dont have guns. In Israel, yea, the state which is in war since the day it was founded, a private person cant have a gun if he dosent have some qualifications {Like a good reason he need one, a clear history and of his family, a psych' report and so on}. And yet these "criminals" dont have guns. There are no violemte home assulting. There are no massacres. Tell me how?
And yea, I love the MP5 even that it "sucks". as i said, its a love from the first sight, i cant explaine it or even give rational answers. I just love this gun.
And if i had a gun? A DEAD PERSON. human life. is it worth it? i dont think so. The trial itself will cost more.
You can always just shoot at his feet, it doesn't have to be lethal.
Because what is a Human life for a wallet? I got robbed once. By knife. I gave them my fake wallet {Im paranoid, but Its a good habbit. put in it some foreign change and a card of anything {i put there a old unused credit card and you are 'safe'}. And i can tell you, if i had a pistol on me, the momment he run away he would go kiss the road with a hole in his back. But i dont have one. So he got my wallet. So waht we got here? lets say, if the wallet was full, -100 Dollars, a credit card {which ill cancle immidietly}, maybe a ticket for something and some personal stuff.
But let's say you had a gun and saw him coming at you with a knife, it would be a different story then. People have gone out and killed people for the sake of killing someone. At the very least you if you saw him you would have at least showed/pulled out your gun and taken his knife so he wouldn't do it again.
And yea, I love the MP5 even that it "sucks". as i said, its a love from the first sight, i cant explaine it or even give rational answers. I just love this gun.
Agreed, that is the only full auto gun I've shot and shooting it was magical, even if I only shot one magazine.
he is not doing it to attack you. he dont care about you. that why he steal. He just want the cash.
Some really don't want witnesses and fire away.
If you will point a gun at him, he will run away.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Do the masses should be able to buy TNT for fun? Just to explode things?
Perhaps with restrictions on the amount per household, but yes. If it's on your property and you've got enough land that the blast won't damage the property or lives of others, and contact the propper authorities for approval (perhaps have an officer or two oversee the blast and ensure that all of the explosives purchased were used up), then yes. If you're responsible about it, that's fine. Why shouldn't you be allowed to destroy your own stuff?
But what about the peoples who are criminals?!
Hence keeping limits and strict records about the amounts purchased, the amounts used, and the times of each (maybe a restriction that they must be used within a day/week) with harsh punishments for misplacing it, owning too much, or selling it.
Passing over the hillbilly comment for right now. It kinda pissed me off, but I suppose I'm just being too sensitive.
You can always just shoot at his feet, it doesn't have to be lethal.
Actually I went to a few lessons for appropriate aiming. Aiming at the feet and actually hitting the feet are two very different things. It's pretty difficult - not like shooting at the chest. When aiming down you have to take into account all of these weird angles and exceptions.
Not even a little sure as to what this has to do with anything, but I have shot pistols before and with only a moment's instruction I could shoot it without hurting myself.
That didn't explain appropriate handling in the slightest. I was trying to make a point, but it's old news now.
Do the masses should be able to buy TNT for fun?
That's so unrelated it's funny. TNT is far more uncontrollable than firearms, and there aren't any places I know of to receive training. Training really wouldn't help that much anyway.
But even if TNT use was somehow trained successfully, it's still less practical than firearms, and, "other than fun" it's pointless. You can't really use it for protection without hurting someone lethally and/or someone innocent.
I think there should be more gun control in the US. Take Chicago as an example. Strictest gun laws in the country, and they only had 500 murders this year.
I think there should be more gun control in the US. Take Chicago as an example. Strictest gun laws in the country, and they only had 500 murders this year.
Interesting image:
87% of those murders were caused by guns. Some legal and some illegal.
Passing over the hillbilly comment for right now. It kinda pissed me off, but I suppose I'm just being too sensitive.
Sorry, that's SSTG for you, sometimes the nicest guy in the World to the meanest SOAB. I'm like this because I don't keep grudge against anyone. I'm usually pissed off for a while then I forget about it.
Let me tell you a story about anger and guns. On Winter 2000, my GF came to spend the holidays with me in Montreal. This year happened to be the snowiest Winter in a long time. She drove all the way from Missouri to Quebec but she wasn't used to drive in that much snow. Anyway, we had a reservation in a fancy restaurant in Old Montreal. To those who are familiar with this part of town knows that the main street is narrow and covered in cobble stones. So she drove around three times until we find a place to park. Unfortunately, the parking spot was very tight and she was stressed out because of the slippery conditions. Meanwhile, there's a taxi cab behind us, honking and yelling at us. I finally had enough of this jerk so I got out of the car and tried to open his door (that he locked quickly) so I could grab him by the neck and shake him a little (I wasn't going to beat him up or something). Since I couldn't open the door, I started yelling and, because of the narrowness of the place, there was a loud echo and I almost scared myself. Anyway, my GF finally parked so I rejoined her and we went to eat.
Now Imagine if I had a gun on me. Being pissed off and all., imagine I got my gun and blew up his radiator. Can you picture the scene with people running all over the place, thinking there's a shoot out, the cops showing up, OMG!
Afterward I thought about it and I promised myself not to let frustration build up because it's dangerous for everybody, including myself (being angry all the time is not healthy) because when you keep it in, it'll want to come out eventually.
So there's you have it, guns and anger can be deadly.
Under the right (or wrong) circumstances, under pressure or stressed out and in protective mode, any guy with a gun can do something bad, no matter how rational you can be. It's also a guy think to stand up for your girl, wife, kids or family, unless you're a coward. Guns makes it easy to kill.
Even if I showed you the end of the World you wouldn't change your mind about guns anyway so...
I'll state it clearly so you don't lump me in with the extremist people.
There are different stances than simply "no guns" or "everyone should have a gun."
My view is that people should be allowed to own guns (not anything like a rocket launcher or automatic machine gun) if they are qualified to do so. I'm not saying that everyone should have a gun, or that people need guns, or that you should use a gun if you have one. I do not think making guns illegal will prevent crime or lessen it. I do think we need stricter gun laws so that there are not as many out there for criminals or crazy people to get a hold of.
I do not own a gun, nor do I plan to. I'm not some "redneck" or "hillbilly" like you seem to assume everyone who doesn't think making guns illegal is a good idea.
Under the right (or wrong) circumstances, under pressure or stressed out and in protective mode, any guy with a gun can do something bad, no matter how rational you can be.
Same goes for anyone with any weapon, even things that you wouldn't normally consider a weapon.
It's also a guy think to stand up for your girl, wife, kids or family, unless you're a coward. Guns makes it easy to kill.
Guns make it easier to kill. They don't make it easy. There's the entire psychological component you're forgetting about. Anyone who could use any weapon, gun or no, to kill multiple people without reason is already messed up to begin with.
So there's you have it, guns and anger can be deadly.
Yes, anger can be deadly, you also could have killed him with a fair sized rock or a crowbar etc.
let me tell you (again) the story of a woman who was at the Luby's Massecre. A gun owning woman who took her gun with her everywhere one day went out to eat with her parents. There was a sign that said no guns, so she figured, it's not like anything bad will happen and she left it in her vehicle. While she was there a car smashed through the side of the building, while everyone was going over to see if he was ok he started shooting people right and left. She was ducked behind a table and was reaching for her gun when she remembered that she had left it in her vehicle. After watching more and more people getting killed including both of her parents, the police finally arrived. I believe he was in the back doing I don't know what. The police started looking for the shooter and shot one bullet into the ceiling and after that he then proceeded to kill himself. If she had brought her gun in with her countless lives would have been saved. She still carries a gun and is all for gun-owning.
That didn't explain appropriate handling in the slightest. I was trying to make a point, but it's old news now.
It's not the kind of thing that I could explain without you being there.
