AGS Steam Games

Forums → WEPR → An Agnostic's Dilemma.

64 22178
Roger721
offline
Roger721
1,100 posts
Nomad

Hello all of you. Perhaps the first time I'm ever posting in this particular section of the forums. I'm only doing so because I needed some opinions on something.

As the thread's title say, I'm agnostic. I don't follow any religions, but can't disprove their existence - nor prove it. But I'm facing a dilemma of sorts - at least I think it's a dilemma :P

My family follows an Evangelic religion - as I'm not from the U.S, the kind of religion my family follows may differ from your types of religion; my family follows a religion which doesn't worship any figures or saints, only God and Jesus. My mom and my stepfather go to the church some times a week. I'm not being obligated to go there... yet.

My mom is looking forward to get me and my brother "baptized" in that religion. And that would make me obligated to go to church some times - even though I don't like to go there.

She says that she's asking us kindly and we have freedom to choose whether to accept it or not. But you know how moms are; When she asked us, she said we should think about it with all of our hearts, and remembered us about the many things she does when we ask her to - like giving rides or allowing trips and parties. I don't think she expects a no as an answer.

Even though I'm not old enough to have freedom of opinion, I've made my choice on religion; I'm agnostic and probably will not change. But I'd not like to be converted and forced to go to church, nor being taught things I don't agree with.

What should I do? Should I step forward and try to retain my choice or should I allow myself to be baptized and withstand things I'm not fond of simply to avoid family issues?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

_______________________________________

Obs: All I need is some opinions. I'm not looking forward to create a thread to serve as a religious war of sorts. So, stay focused and don't start a flame war here. I'd be much appreciated.

For the mods, I'd like to ask you to keep an eye on this thread. If it becomes against the forum rules, feel free to delete it - but, please, could you notify me on my profile if that happens? Thank you.

  • 64 Replies
pangtongshu
offline
pangtongshu
9,808 posts
Jester

Agnostic is a term all of its own. Basically it means, "I don't know" but that's not quite right.


You're right...that was my mistake. I was thinking solely about the subdivisions that I forgot about the overlaying main idea of Agnosticism

My mom is looking forward to get me and my brother "baptized" in that religion. And that would make me obligated to go to church some times - even though I don't like to go there.


I fail to see how being baptized would make you obligated to have to go to church. I was baptized and I don't go to church and retain my stance as Agnostic Theistic

but she also says she'll not force me into getting baptized and is using many arguments to convince me otherwise.


Point out to her how she gave you a choice..and that trying to convince you do to do might only push you away as you would feel the obligation instead of the faith

but if you're not currently saying, "Yes, there is a god," then you're an agnostic atheist.


Hey now...saying "There might be a God" doesn't make you agnostic atheist =p

I think that you could get 'baptised' to please your mother, if it's a rite of passage like a Barmitzvah at the same time as asserting your right to be 'agnostic'. Let's call it being nice to your mom.


But then you are disrespecting the religion/church..by goin through something so serious for the religion for the sole purpose of pleasing a family member
EmperorPalpatine
offline
EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

"Yes, there is a god,"

Should've been "Yes, I believe there is a god." Sorry.

Agnostic Theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.
-wiki
Roger721
offline
Roger721
1,100 posts
Nomad

Well... late reply here. Hello all.

Your situation with your family sounds tough. Personally, I would try to not rock the boat, and do as little of the religion stuff as I could get away with, without upsetting my parents. But my parents stopped making me go to church when I was 13 (approximately), and so I stopped going, except on special occasions to make my mom happy. You can still grow into your own person, but its probably best to be respectful of other people's beliefs.


I see... and I do respect her choice. I'm actually pretty happy she's attending that church. She is a depressive kind of person, and the church helps her overcoming some of our difficulties. But... that's not what I agree with. If she thinks there's a God and she should follow Him, fine. Great. Awesome. But if I can't manifest my opinion and be bound to this opinion, that's not right.

I think that you could get 'baptised' to please your mother, if it's a rite of passage like a Barmitzvah at the same time as asserting your right to be 'agnostic'. Let's call it being nice to your mom.


Er... the baptism is some kind of initiation... on the religion. People who follow it get baptized to stand out of the normal church-goer. It assures you believe in God. I'd love if it functioned as a simple ritual, but mandatory church sessions - which actually start tomorrow (dang it) - and other probable times I'll be forced into attending a meeting to listen to stuff I don't believe in keep me unsure about it.

I fail to see how being baptized would make you obligated to have to go to church. I was baptized and I don't go to church and retain my stance as Agnostic Theistic


Well... there are some pre-baptism obligatory sessions. And my mom would be very happy if I attended every session. The church wouldn't actually order me to go, but my mom would.

Point out to her how she gave you a choice... and that trying to convince you do to do might only push you away as you would feel the obligation instead of the faith


I think that in her mind... she gave me no choices. She expects me to get baptized. Period.

But that's a good point. I see no reasons to believe in the church's ideology, but the obligation I'm being shoved into actually make me want to stay away from it.

Hey now...saying "There might be a God" doesn't make you agnostic atheist =P


Er... nope. Nor saying that there might be a superior force. That'd be agnostic theism.

I guess I'm more into going to the side of agnostic atheism. I don't seem to believe in the existence of any kind of God, but as science can't tell me everything, I wonder if there's not a force of sorts - even though is hard proving that it does exist.

But then you are disrespecting the religion/church..by goin through something so serious for the religion for the sole purpose of pleasing a family member


I agree. Believing or not, religious stuff are serious business. People that believe know that's not a joking ground. Perhaps if I tell my mom of my thoughts, she might agree with that.

Lemme tell you a story:

When I was younger, I actually believed in God's existence. I believed that there were many saints and God would rule them all in order to expel evil creatures from people's lives - and me and my family would actually follow a religion of brazilian roots. But my life would go through many breakdowns or harsh times, such as my mom having depressive crisis, my father having heart problems, my family having discussions upon a heritage and I getting despaired upon all of that. I'd find myself praying... for nothing. As my life wouldn't get any better, I started to wonder about all of that. Well, if that existed, why was I suffering in that way? So I decided that I'd stop worrying about praying and focus on get trouble solved for real. I had lost all my faith in God or any of that - and all that held me from accepting the non-existence of an outer force was the lack of some explanations upon the world that surrounds me.

In the meantime, my mom would actually follow a similar line of thinking, but instead of cease to believe, she'd conclude that all of that was the religion's fault, that it was evil, and changed to the Evangelic scenery, only believing in God and Jesus. What influenced her into that was, perhaps, seeing that many people around us had found their peace and success in that religion.
________________________________________

I'm sorry if this is getting a little off-topic. Yet the trouble seems to be getting closer to me - as the mandatory sessions start today. It's time for me to take a decision - and these opinions are helping my mind a lot!
Roger721
offline
Roger721
1,100 posts
Nomad

Whoops. Ninja'd and I need to fix something. Sorry 'bout DP.

FIXING:

In the meantime, my mom would actually follow a similar line of thinking, but instead of cease to believe, she'd conclude that all of that was that specific religion's fault, that it was evil, the many saints were evil and the form of worshiping God was wrong, changing to the Evangelic scenery, only believing in God and Jesus. What influenced her into that was, perhaps, seeing that many people around us had found their peace and success in the Evangelic religion.


Agnostic Theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.


Uhhh... I guess that's what I believe in.
MageGrayWolf
offline
MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

On the agnosticism thing. This only speaks of one's knowledge, not of what you believe. Try to be careful not to confuse the two. Also when you're not sure what you believe you can go back and forth between atheist and theist quite often and quite rapidly.

Hey now...saying "There might be a God" doesn't make you agnostic atheist =p


Yes it can. Just because someone says there might be something there says nothing of whether they believe it is there.

Now on to the question. I agree with much of the advice given here. Be open and upfront with here. Tell her that you respect her choices and beliefs. Tell her for that reason you wouldn't want to participate under false pretenses because of this respect you have for her beliefs.

Keep in mind when you're saying "I don't want to do this because I would be lying to God" at some level in her you're saying "I don't want to do this because I would be lying to you." "and I have to much respect for you to do that."
nichodemus
offline
nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

I was and still am in parts still a Buddhist. I kind of thought through it, and well, decided I was agnostic, dabbling a little in atheism, getting into the grey area, but whatever. My parents told me I was going to be a Buddhist in my minority, and it was not much of a big deal. We aren't religious and all, and she knew that I wasn't really committed, so she was fine with it.

Religion can be contentious, but only if you make it to be a big part of your life. For the most part, just carry on with your daily life, develop your beliefs slowly, and when you reach adulthood, tell her, you made your choice.

Roger721
offline
Roger721
1,100 posts
Nomad

Now on to the question. I agree with much of the advice given here. Be open and upfront with here. Tell her that you respect her choices and beliefs. Tell her for that reason you wouldn't want to participate under false pretenses because of this respect you have for her beliefs.

Keep in mind when you're saying "I don't want to do this because I would be lying to God" at some level in her you're saying "I don't want to do this because I would be lying to you." "and I have to much respect for you to do that."


I guess that'd be it.

Religion can be contentious, but only if you make it to be a big part of your life. For the most part, just carry on with your daily life, develop your beliefs slowly, and when you reach adulthood, tell her, you made your choice.


Er... I wish it was this simple. But I'm afraid that thing would be a big deal. I can't simply agree with that and still develop my own beliefs. It's like a seal of commitment to follow the religion.
___________________________________________________________

Now... something I've realized... my decision might stir up her own beliefs. I'm afraid that my show of non-believing might make her start to wonder about her beliefs. That's a rather "egocentrical" thought, but it's a risk... I guess.
Roger721
offline
Roger721
1,100 posts
Nomad

~fixing again~

Now... something I've realized... my decision might stir up her own beliefs. I'm afraid that my show of non-believing might make her start to wonder about her beliefs. That's a rather "egocentrical" thought, but it's a risk... I guess.


Call me paranoid, alas, but I'm afraid if that happens... what if I wrote her a letter? I mean, instead of directly talking to her, I could write a note and leave it somewhere she would find when I wasn't around, so... no fights would be started.
EmperorPalpatine
offline
EmperorPalpatine
9,439 posts
Jester

Direct is the best method in this case. Leaving a letter would still create conflict, but it would be slightly delayed, and there's no way you'd be able to sufficiently explain yourself in a note. The emotion would likely be lost and she'd see it as though you're "mad at God" or something. Depending on how devout she is, she might set up everything she can to reconvert you, maybe call in a priest or something.

nichodemus
offline
nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Call me paranoid, alas, but I'm afraid if that happens... what if I wrote her a letter? I mean, instead of directly talking to her, I could write a note and leave it somewhere she would find when I wasn't around, so... no fights would be started.



No, she'll still hound after you. And speaking is most of the time, more honest, open and better received.
pangtongshu
offline
pangtongshu
9,808 posts
Jester

Call me paranoid, alas, but I'm afraid if that happens... what if I wrote her a letter? I mean, instead of directly talking to her, I could write a note and leave it somewhere she would find when I wasn't around, so... no fights would be started.


Like nicho said..plus now you have to deal with the annoyances of "why didn't you just talk to me in person" or thereof

Now... something I've realized... my decision might stir up her own beliefs. I'm afraid that my show of non-believing might make her start to wonder about her beliefs. That's a rather "egocentrical" thought, but it's a risk... I guess.


How much faith does she have in her beliefs?
If something like this does happen..you wouldn't be really making her question her beliefs..but be opening the door to a self-truth of hers that maybe she doesn't really have much faith in these beliefs
Again..that is an if..that happens
thebluerabbit
offline
thebluerabbit
5,340 posts
Farmer

well 3 pages since it started and i dont have time to read everything so i will refer to the begining.

NOOOOOOOOOOO, your mother doesnt sound like one of those extremists who would actually do something if you say no except for giving you the eye once in a while. what i learned in my life is that if you say yes for small things even if you dont want to thinking that "its not that big of a deal" people (espacially family) will start expecting more and more and it will be more difficult to stop. and trust me, its a lonely place you dont want to be in.

i would put an end to this right now and tell her you just dont believe/want to believe/whatever in what she believes and that she has to deal with it.

really... sometimes its up to the children/teenagers to raise the adults and show them the boundries.

but of course... if im wrong and the situation is more extreme then i guessed then you should just do as she says until you dont need her anymore and can take care of yourself. sounds cold... but if its really that extreme its the best thing.

dont let anyone think even for a second they can expect you to be what and who they want you to be. (and this comes for a religious person too)

nichodemus
offline
nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Imagine Sheldon and his mum. Get to that stage.

Bladerunner679
offline
Bladerunner679
2,487 posts
Blacksmith

ahh agnosticism, the fine line that is hard to balance on.

do you not want to go? I ask this because if you don't want to go, then you assert this. it doesn't matter what he opinion is because it is ultimately your descision. nothing that is worth fighting for has ever been easy to obtain. remember that when you start giving up more and more in order to satisfy her. if you want to be treated with respect for your descision, then make one and stick with it, no matter what it is.

-Blade

Kasic
offline
Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

it doesn't matter what he opinion is because it is ultimately your descision. nothing that is worth fighting for has ever been easy to obtain. remember that when you start giving up more and more in order to satisfy her. if you want to be treated with respect for your descision, then make one and stick with it, no matter what it is.


I agree with this, and disagree with it at the same time.

Her opinion does matter, but it shouldn't be something that makes you go against your will. Same goes with the giving up thing, sometimes you have to do things to make living together not a hellish existence. If getting baptized puts her mind at ease, that's an hour and a half out of your life and no harm done to you. Yes, it's silly, and yes, you'd rather not do it, but life isn't so simple as just getting what you want.

That said, you don't have to if you don't want to, or if you think that would open the door to "you did this, why not that?" Not everyone is the same and we can't really know your situation since we aren't you.
Showing 16-30 of 64