{Intolerant}If Athiests and Homosexuals expect us Christians to be tolerant of them, how come they arent tole...

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Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted February 10, '13 9:05pm UTC

Atheists go out of their way to deprive Christians of their beliefs and make them look like idiots for our faith, yet, us believing isnt hurting anybody?

A few do. Except, we aren't a group like you're making us sound. And there also aren't nearly that many. And, even in the worst cases, it's just harassing them for being unable to provide evidence. Christians daily do many worse things to atheists. Not that either is right to do so, but Christians do it because religion tells them to, while those atheists insult the Christians for doing those things.

Want a comparison? Kid A goes up to Kid B and starts a conversation. Kid B talks about his favorite band. Kid A doesn't agree about the band being good and gives reasons why. Kid B calls Kid A an idiot for not liking the band, saying they're the best. Kid A gives more reasons why he thinks the band isn't good. Kid B calls his friends over, who also say that the band is good. Kid A gets annoyed that Kid B and his friends just keep saying the band is good.

Who is who?

Then, I would never try to make an atheist look like an idiot.

"I hit him because he hit me."

^Maturity of a 6 year old. I'm not saying atheists that go out of their way to provoke people are any better, mind you. However, there is a VERY large issue I would like to discuss.

Was he trying to make you look like an idiot?

Asking questions and questioning your claims is NOT making you look like an idiot. If you can't answer, you either need to research or drop that claim.

Asserting that religion causes harm is FACT. It is not an insult to say that religion has been a significant force for justifying violence and discrimination, it is truth.

Saying that claims of a 6000 year old Earth and global floods are unfounded is not an insult. It is true.

Saying that one needs to become literate in science because the theist doesn't accept evolution is not an insult. It is truth.

Every human has sinned.

And see, this is where it starts. Religion makes a claim. Then someone disagrees and asks for proof, and you can't give it. As you get pressed on questions you cannot answer because you have no proof, you walk away saying that we are insulting your beliefs. No. We are presenting to you the facts and you are running away.

There is also a difference in how things are said. What I have said is not insulting. I have not called you an idiot. I have not called everyone who follows your religion evil. I have not said you are evil. I have not said you are stupid for believing what you do, only that you have no proof. I have not said you are immoral.

And yet, let's look at what you've called ALL homosexuals and atheists, and see who really is being tolerant.

"But yet, they are not tolerant of ours"

[quote]Atheists go out of their way to deprive Christians of their beliefs and make them look like idiots for our faith, yet, us believing isnt hurting anybody?[/quote]\r\n\r\nA few do. Except, we aren't a group like you're making us sound. And there also aren't nearly that many. And, even in the worst cases, it's just harassing them for being unable to provide evidence. Christians daily do many worse things to atheists. Not that either is right to do so, but Christians do it because religion tells them to, while those atheists insult the Christians for doing those things.\r\n\r\nWant a comparison? Kid A goes up to Kid B and starts a conversation. Kid B talks about his favorite band. Kid A doesn't agree about the band being good and gives reasons why. Kid B calls Kid A an idiot for not liking the band, saying they're the best. Kid A gives more reasons why he thinks the band isn't good. Kid B calls his friends over, who also say that the band is good. Kid A gets annoyed that Kid B and his friends just keep saying the band is good.\r\n\r\nWho is who?\r\n\r\n[quote]Then, I would never try to make an atheist look like an idiot. [/quote]\r\n\r\n"I hit him because he hit me."\r\n\r\n^Maturity of a 6 year old. I'm not saying atheists that go out of their way to provoke people are any better, mind you. However, there is a VERY large issue I would like to discuss.\r\n\r\n[b]Was he trying to make you look like an idiot?[/b]\r\n\r\nAsking questions and questioning your claims is NOT making you look like an idiot. If you can't answer, you either need to research or drop that claim.\r\n\r\nAsserting that religion causes harm is FACT. It is not an insult to say that religion has been a significant force for justifying violence and discrimination, it is truth.\r\n\r\nSaying that claims of a 6000 year old Earth and global floods are unfounded is not an insult. It is true. \r\n\r\nSaying that one needs to become literate in science because the theist doesn't accept evolution is not an insult. It is truth.\r\n\r\n[quote] Every human has sinned.[/quote]\r\n\r\nAnd see, this is where it starts. Religion makes a claim. Then someone disagrees and asks for proof, and you can't give it. As you get pressed on questions you cannot answer because you have no proof, you walk away saying that we are insulting your beliefs. No. We are presenting to you the facts and you are running away.\r\n\r\nThere is also a difference in how things are said. What I have said is not insulting. I have not called you an idiot. I have not called everyone who follows your religion evil. I have not said you are evil. I have not said you are stupid for believing what you do, only that you have no proof. I have not said you are immoral.\r\n\r\nAnd yet, let's look at what you've called ALL homosexuals and atheists, and see who really is being tolerant.\r\n\r\n"But yet, they are not tolerant of ours"

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted February 10, '13 9:05pm UTC

Atheists go out of their way to deprive Christians of their beliefs

No we're not. Just saying that we don't believe your claim and providing our reason why is not depriving you of your beliefs. It might and has gotten people questioning what they believe and often they eventually stop believing.

and make them look like idiots for our faith,

It's not trying to make you look like idiots. Many atheists do find the belief kinda dumb, but that doesn't mean they find the person holding that belief dumb. You can be very intelligent and still hold unfounded beliefs.

And last time I checked, homosexuals have their own arranged marriages anyways?

Homosexual are only allowed to get married in a handful of states. If you are speaking of unions they don't offer the same legal benefits that marriage does. If they did I think separating the two by the terms just becomes semantics and pointless.

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Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted February 10, '13 9:06pm UTC

Post got cut.

"But yet, they are not tolerant of ours"

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pballaddict

128 posts

Nomad

Posted February 10, '13 9:22pm UTC

You still haven't replied to what I said. I simply have nothing to lose.

I would say this is an even Steven, but you don't have hard solid facts that Jesus did not exist, same with God. Nor do you have an answer on how we came to be here. And you may refer to apes, while, where did the apes come from?

The difference between me and you guys, is that I have faith. And I simply win either way. There is a God and I will have everlasting life in the name of Jesus Christ. But if there were to not be a God, I simply die like everyone else. Believing in God isn't asking for much at all.

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Avorne

3,085 posts

Nomad

Posted February 10, '13 9:27pm UTC

Christians throughout history have been intolerant, the laws informed by Christian ideology served to punish anyone who didn't fit in with the traditional definition of good, and it just so happens that homosexuals (and to a lesser extent Atheists) were very much on the receiving end of those laws.

Am I saying that all Christians were like that? That all Christians created the laws that harmed homosexuals and atheists in Western society? No, of course not. Enough of them, though, WERE like that to allow for laws meaning that homosexuals in some countries (England for example) were chemically castrated and/or imprisoned for their sexuality - and that atheists lived in a society where they'd be completely ostracised for not believing in a God.

Laws have changed in more recent times, true, but old suspicions die hard and especially so when homophobic and anti-atheist attitudes still have mainstream prevalence - you need look no further than the British parliament and the recent debates on gay marriage. So many hateful comments, so many people trying to deny homosexuals their rights used the excuse of traditional Christian ideology as a means of legitimizing their hate.

You can't just say 'Not All Christians Are Like That' (NACALT) every time a Christian in a position of power uses their faith as a means to hatred. It's not how many are like that - it's how many tell those people that they're wrong and that they shouldn't be so hateful.

Christians are united by a common God and a common Holy book. Atheists are united by nothing more than a lack of faith in deities and homosexuals by nothing more than an attraction to the same gender. It falls to Christians, therefore, to be the ones that weed out the radicals and the intolerant parties in their group. Once they're seen to be doing that then, perhaps, it will be easier for the whole world to get along without one group of people to get along with another.

One last point, has it ever occurred to you that people don't want to hear about how 'loving' and 'accepting' Christianity is? That they'd like to just continue their lives without you telling them the merits of joining your particular faith group?

Christians throughout history have been intolerant, the laws informed by Christian ideology served to punish anyone who didn't fit in with the traditional definition of good, and it just so happens that homosexuals (and to a lesser extent Atheists) were very much on the receiving end of those laws. \r\n\r\nAm I saying that all Christians were like that? That all Christians created the laws that harmed homosexuals and atheists in Western society? No, of course not. Enough of them, though, WERE like that to allow for laws meaning that homosexuals in some countries (England for example) were chemically castrated and/or imprisoned for their sexuality - and that atheists lived in a society where they'd be completely ostracised for not believing in a God. \r\n\r\nLaws have changed in more recent times, true, but old suspicions die hard and especially so when homophobic and anti-atheist attitudes still have mainstream prevalence - you need look no further than the British parliament and the recent debates on gay marriage. So many hateful comments, so many people trying to deny homosexuals their rights used the excuse of traditional Christian ideology as a means of legitimizing their hate. \r\n\r\nYou can't just say 'Not All Christians Are Like That' (NACALT) every time a Christian in a position of power uses their faith as a means to hatred. It's not how many are like that - it's how many tell those people that they're wrong and that they shouldn't be so hateful. \r\n\r\nChristians are united by a common God and a common Holy book. Atheists are united by nothing more than a lack of faith in deities and homosexuals by nothing more than an attraction to the same gender. It falls to Christians, therefore, to be the ones that weed out the radicals and the intolerant parties in their group. Once they're seen to be doing that then, perhaps, it will be easier for the whole world to get along without one group of people to get along with another. \r\n\r\nOne last point, has it ever occurred to you that people don't want to hear about how 'loving' and 'accepting' Christianity is? That they'd like to just continue their lives without you telling them the merits of joining your particular faith group?

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted February 10, '13 9:29pm UTC

Send them to hell? Not be necessarily. It's more of a hand stretched out to ou. And you choose whether to grab or not.

There are many atheist who see this mindset as a problem. Claiming to be inherently flawed and claiming that you have the cure. To paraphrase Hitchens "It's not a cure, it's poisons".

And also, this is not my reason believe or not, but see I'm comfortable. If I was to die and there is no God, then I would just die. But if an atheist was to die, and there is a God, then.

Or it could turn out to be a different god or gods, it's not just the Christian God or no God. Even if it was the Christian God you might have gotten the wrong denomination and still be in trouble with that God. It may even be something no one has thought of.

As such the situation then becomes Do we spin the wheel and hope we get it right or do we hold out for some solid evidence?

Being a Christian is not asking for much, but to simply believe.

It can do far more, it can tell you what to think, how to think, how to act and depending on the denomination it's not always good.

[quote]Send them to hell? Not be necessarily. It's more of a hand stretched out to ou. And you choose whether to grab or not.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThere are many atheist who see this mindset as a problem. Claiming to be inherently flawed and claiming that you have the cure. To paraphrase Hitchens "It's not a cure, it's poisons".\r\n\r\n [quote]And also, this is not my reason believe or not, but see I'm comfortable. If I was to die and there is no God, then I would just die. But if an atheist was to die, and there is a God, then.[/quote]\r\n\r\nOr it could turn out to be a different god or gods, it's not just the Christian God or no God. Even if it was the Christian God you might have gotten the wrong denomination and still be in trouble with that God. It may even be something no one has thought of.\r\n\r\nAs such the situation then becomes Do we spin the wheel and hope we get it right or do we hold out for some solid evidence?\r\n\r\n[quote]Being a Christian is not asking for much, but to simply believe.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt can do far more, it can tell you what to think, how to think, how to act and depending on the denomination it's not always good.

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HahiHa

8,256 posts

Regent

Posted February 10, '13 9:30pm UTC

Nor do you have an answer on how we came to be here.

Abiogenesis.

And you may refer to apes, while, where did the apes come from?

We did not descend from apes. We are apes. We descended from a common ancestor, that evolved from other lifeforms; in short, evolution. To answer how it all started, see abiogenesis.

The difference between me and you guys, is that I have faith. And I simply win either way. There is a God and I will have everlasting life in the name of Jesus Christ. But if there were to not be a God, I simply die like everyone else. Believing in God isn't asking for much at all.

This is Pascal's wager. Pascal's wager is wrong on oh so many fronts, see this. For example, what if neither christians nor atheists were right? Then you'd be ****ed for believing in the wrong deity. Independent on what you believe, the probability of being right will always be close to zero.

[quote]Nor do you have an answer on how we came to be here. [/quote]\r\n[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg]Abiogenesis[/url]. \r\n\r\n[quote]And you may refer to apes, while, where did the apes come from? [/quote]\r\nWe did not descend from apes. We are apes. We descended from a common ancestor, that evolved from other lifeforms; in short, evolution. To answer how it all started, see abiogenesis. \r\n\r\n[quote]The difference between me and you guys, is that I have faith. And I simply win either way. There is a God and I will have everlasting life in the name of Jesus Christ. But if there were to not be a God, I simply die like everyone else. Believing in God isn't asking for much at all.[/quote]\r\nThis is Pascal's wager. Pascal's wager is wrong on oh so many fronts, see [url=http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager][i]this[/i][/url]. For example, what if neither christians nor atheists were right? Then you'd be ****ed for believing in the wrong deity. Independent on what you believe, the probability of being right will always be close to zero.

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Avorne

3,085 posts

Nomad

Posted February 10, '13 9:33pm UTC

but you don't have hard solid facts that Jesus did not exist

You don't have solid facts that he did exist.

Nor do you have an answer on how we came to be here.

Totally not like the Big Bang Theory, Abiogenesis and Evolution are things or anything.

Your referral to Evolution as humans coming 'from Apes' shows your ignorance on the topic, though, so I don't hold much faith that abiogenesis will get through your blinkered vision and into that cotton-wrapped brain of yours.

I'd also recommend that you look up Pascal's Wager.

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wolf1991

3,437 posts

Farmer

Posted February 10, '13 9:38pm UTC

I would say this is an even Steven, but you don't have hard solid facts that Jesus did not exist, same with God.

*puts on historian hat*

The name Jesus around the turn of the era (BCE to CE) was a fairly common name, so many historians will take that at face value. Furthermore, if we take Islam as an example, it is an accepted historical fact that SOMEONE had to have inspired the creation of the Islamic faith.

There is documentation to support this, though it's obscure and I'm not an expert on this historical time period. Regardless the example shows that a person must have inspired the creation of the Christian faith.

THE PROBLEM: There is no concrete evidence to tell who this historical figure was. The bible cannot be considered a reliable historical document because of the numerous revisions and translations it has gone through.

As for proving god. Let's not start this because you cannot prove this matter either way.

Nor do you have an answer on how we came to be here. And you may refer to apes, while, where did the apes come from?

I shall have to call upon Mage to invoke the Wall o' Links should he still possess it. Evolution is a very complicated matter.

The difference between me and you guys, is that I have faith. And I simply win either way.

No, there is no winning or losing. You do not "win" because you have faith, because in terms of facts, faith is groundless.

Believing in God isn't asking for much at all.

Except for the dismissal of a great number of scientific theories (aka things that have lots of proof behind them)

[quote]I would say this is an even Steven, but you don't have hard solid facts that Jesus did not exist, same with God.[/quote]\r\n\r\n*puts on historian hat*\r\n\r\nThe name Jesus around the turn of the era (BCE to CE) was a fairly common name, so many historians will take that at face value. Furthermore, if we take Islam as an example, it is an accepted historical fact that SOMEONE had to have inspired the creation of the Islamic faith.\r\n\r\nThere is documentation to support this, though it's obscure and I'm not an expert on this historical time period. Regardless the example shows that a person must have inspired the creation of the Christian faith.\r\n\r\nTHE PROBLEM: There is no concrete evidence to tell who this historical figure was. The bible cannot be considered a reliable historical document because of the numerous revisions and translations it has gone through.\r\n\r\nAs for proving god. Let's not start this because you cannot prove this matter either way.\r\n[quote]\r\nNor do you have an answer on how we came to be here. And you may refer to apes, while, where did the apes come from?[/quote]\r\n\r\nI shall have to call upon Mage to invoke the Wall o' Links should he still possess it. Evolution is a very complicated matter.\r\n[quote]\r\nThe difference between me and you guys, is that I have faith. And I simply win either way. [/quote]\r\n\r\nNo, there is no winning or losing. You do not "win" because you have faith, because in terms of facts, faith is groundless.\r\n[quote]\r\nBelieving in God isn't asking for much at all.[/quote]\r\n\r\nExcept for the dismissal of a great number of scientific theories (aka things that have lots of proof behind them)

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted February 10, '13 9:39pm UTC

I would say this is an even Steven, but you don't have hard solid facts that Jesus did not exist, same with God.

You don't go about proving a negative. You looking for facts and evidence to support the positive claim and default to the negative claim.
For example if I were to say there is an invisible flying elephant over you head right now and is going to poop on your head if you don't move out of the way. Would you believe me with out any evidence to support it and run around trying to escape the invisible elephant poo or are you going to hold off until I can show you this elephant is real? And further more is it up to you to to prove it isn't or is it up to me to demonstrate it does exist?

And you may refer to apes, while, where did the apes come from?

We're still apes. As for the species we evolved from they in turn evolved from and earlier form going all the way back to the point where chemical reaction took place forming self replicating molecules.

The difference between me and you guys, is that I have faith.

To me that's not a good thing. That's just saying your accepting something at face value without anything to support that claim.

[quote]I would say this is an even Steven, but you don't have hard solid facts that Jesus did not exist, same with God.[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou don't go about proving a negative. You looking for facts and evidence to support the positive claim and default to the negative claim.\r\nFor example if I were to say there is an invisible flying elephant over you head right now and is going to poop on your head if you don't move out of the way. Would you believe me with out any evidence to support it and run around trying to escape the invisible elephant poo or are you going to hold off until I can show you this elephant is real? And further more is it up to you to to prove it isn't or is it up to me to demonstrate it does exist?\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nAnd you may refer to apes, while, where did the apes come from?[/quote] \r\n\r\nWe're still apes. As for the species we evolved from they in turn evolved from and earlier form going all the way back to the point where chemical reaction took place forming self replicating molecules.\r\n\r\n[quote]The difference between me and you guys, is that I have faith.[/quote]\r\n\r\nTo me that's not a good thing. That's just saying your accepting something at face value without anything to support that claim.

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted February 10, '13 9:47pm UTC

Your referral to Evolution as humans coming 'from Apes' shows your ignorance on the topic,

Are statements like these what you mean by "make them look like idiots for our faith"? Because that's not at all what's going on.

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pballaddict

128 posts

Nomad

Posted February 10, '13 10:00pm UTC

http://youtu.be/TDMVd0cAYKE

Keep in mind I do not believe in EVERYTHING he is saying, by it makes good points. Please watch.

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Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted February 10, '13 10:02pm UTC

Because that's not at all what's going on.

It is and it isn't. People arguing about evolution and constantly pointing out ridiculous misunderstandings do make people look stupid. That's not their intent though.

It's like, someone walking around claiming 2+2=9. Someone goes up to them and tells them that's not right, the answer is 4. The other person responds saying they believe it's 9. So the person tries to explain how addition works, and the person who believe's the answer to be 9 says that they were told in a book that it was 9 and that the book was right. So the person tries to disprove the book on it's claim of 9, but the person who thinks it is 9 brings out a whole swarm of other incorrect additions answers, citing those are right. They then say that because those are right, 2+2=9. Then the person who is trying to say it's 4 either gets annoyed, mad, calls the person stupid or walks away with a facepalm.

^Is what theists look like when talking about evolution.

[quote] Because that's not at all what's going on.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt is and it isn't. People arguing about evolution and constantly pointing out ridiculous misunderstandings do make people look stupid. That's not their intent though. \r\n\r\nIt's like, someone walking around claiming 2+2=9. Someone goes up to them and tells them that's not right, the answer is 4. The other person responds saying they believe it's 9. So the person tries to explain how addition works, and the person who believe's the answer to be 9 says that they were told in a book that it was 9 and that the book was right. So the person tries to disprove the book on it's claim of 9, but the person who thinks it is 9 brings out a whole swarm of other incorrect additions answers, citing those are right. They then say that because those are right, 2+2=9. Then the person who is trying to say it's 4 either gets annoyed, mad, calls the person stupid or walks away with a facepalm.\r\n\r\n^Is what theists look like when talking about evolution.

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EmperorPalpatine

9,439 posts

Jester

Posted February 10, '13 10:05pm UTC

Please watch.

Oh, I kicked the crap out of that guy's arguments months ago. Hang on while I find my counterpoints.

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wolf1991

3,437 posts

Farmer

Posted February 10, '13 10:07pm UTC

The link doesn't work. Someone want to direct me?

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