I kept seeing this on MSN, and it kinda bugged me. Anyways, to sum it up, "An Associated Press investigation found that Karkoc served as a top commander in the Ukrainian Self-Defense Legion during WWII. The unit is accused of wartime atrocities, including the burning of villages filled with women and children" -MSN
Read the article, its interesting. I wasn't aware people were still prosecuting ex Nazis. The man is 94 years old, and lives in Minneapolis. I want to know your opinions on this matter. Should he be prosecuted for crimes that was committed over 70 years ago?
And hey, I'd love free health care, but that's another whole issue.
so will he have when he is in france for his trail.
anyway, the question you asked befor doesn't come up in my books. because he would have free health care like anyone else. nothing extra would be spend on him needing medical help.
he'd just be in the hospital for likely a large portion of his incarceration.
a life in prison seems more harsh then death to me.
Yeah, I was going to add that but I was trying to be concise. Death row in the US is so bad they have a thing called Death Row Phenomenon. It is basically torture they way they do it, and after years and years of severe emotional distress, 23 hr/day or more of isolation in a 4ft-10ft cell, the result is massive mental health issues, delusions, hallucinations, suicide and self-mutilation. One guy in california death row stabbed himself in both eyes. Once that healed, he killed himself. So yes, it is torture.
what else you expect when you let people wait for their deaths?
let me put it this way then. a life a prison is harsh enough.... no need to emotionally torture people that are simple waiting to die. without any hope for anything.
Its a good thing this waiting. Its purpose is to let the prisoner more than enough time to appeal, or to the police to find new evidence.
Anyway, to all of these Miligram fans - yea, i know, i learnd psycholigy in high school. But like a kid who throw a water ballon on a teacher "because everyone did it" or a member of a lynch who just joined ib without even knowing why, he need to be punished.
And even more, HE WAS A SS. if he was a "normal" solider i would understand your arguement. But he vulenteered. No one asked for foregien help fron the occupied nations. They did it because they belived in it. He was an officer god dammet.
Hitler got to power by democratic election. Its not then the poor poor germans were all threarend to follow him by a private SA for every person in germany to do so. Its easy to ay "i just followed orders", but thats an excse. They knew whats going on.and they preferd to close there eyes, with only a small bunch of peoples trying to help.
Sure, when a officer yell at you to shot, mostly you will. But you also need to suffer the consequnces.
^ I was going to basically quote your whole post, so just to save pixels, Imagine that its all here --> "..."
It Doesn't seem like you actually read any of the articles referenced... is why it keeps getting brought up. Didn't read or didn't comprehend, either way....
Yes he should be punished, just like anyone who does something awful. Understanding why ordinary people committed atrocities does not excuse them. But it seems like you are not understanding that by and large, these were ordinary people, put in terrible situations. The "Zimbardo" link above will explain that in a lot more detail than I can. The Wikipedia page (or your own google search) about the Fundamental Attribution Error will also be enlightening in this case.
I know moew than enough, thank you very much. But at the begining it wasnt so hard. When the occupied Poland, you can see the sadistic happiness on there faces while torturing the jewish peoples. You can see a german beat up someone, a group of "ordinary" soliders, with no officer around, no one force them too or stop them from just letting this poor man go with no harm.
They are not victims. A speicely these foregien SS groups. As i said befor, in many cases these bastereds "done the job" befor the nazies could even arrive. When they heared germany occupied the territory they just slaghuterd, murduredall the jews, communist, and etc.
Again, these "hard times", "just followed orders" are poor excuses in many cases
When Lithuinia was conquered by the soviet from germany, the red army found 2500 corpses in the woods, preapered to be set on fire. These soliders risked there life, just to kill these peoples. Most jewish, some other hated groups. The german army was broken. No one could have threat them to do so. But yet they did.
Im sure (or hope) that many of them were just "ordinary peoples", who have been caught in a bad influence. But many many of them showed such a devotion to "the job" that its quite, well, wierd.
Yes he should be punished, just like anyone who does something awful. Understanding why ordinary people committed atrocities does not excuse them.
Here is what you said (i can only assume in response to me):
They are not victims.
#missingthepoint
I'm only going to say this once more, because its a waste of my time if you aren't interested in learning anything. Read this article.
The lazy, emotionally reactive, and unsophisticated way to think about people and situations like this is to assume that they are "bad apples," or deviant psychopaths who were just waiting for the perfect time to act out their sick fantasies, or that collectively the whole (most) of the german population at the time were fundamentally bad people. None of these is not the case though. Yes there are always outliers in every population, but to generalize an entire group is no more accurate than any other race/gender/nationality-based generalization.
Clearly, you are emotionally attached to your beliefs about the nazis and that is understandable if you have family members, friends, neighbors who were killed or tortured or separated from their families by the nazis. I can sympathize, My grandfather's entire family (and the entire jewish population in their town) were killed by the nazis when they invaded poland. It takes courage to challenge beliefs that have been passed down to you, or that you hold closely. But what we know about human emotion, behavior, and interaction indicates that ordinary people (and I'm talking about the majority of people on a bell-curve) are capable of doing terrible things even when they aren't directly ordered to do so, because their environment and context, and the role they are acting in can be overwhelming determinants in their behavior. This is the main thesis of the Zimbardo article that I linked. It is the "Bad barrel, not bad apple" metaphor.
In the stanford prison experiment, it took less than a weekend for the prison guards (a randomly assigned group of stanford college students) to start harassing and grossly mistreating the prisoners (also a randomly assigned group of stanford college students). They were not directed to do so, they had no predisposition to do so, they didn't know the prisoners beforehand, and they had no reason to do so other than they were "the guards" and those other guys were "the prisoners." This same phenomenon can be seen on a more real-world level in the abu graib scandal.
Dude, i know all these experiments. I learnd psycholigy in high school and im quite good at history, so lets cover these fronts.
#missingthepoint
Did you jsut hashtag me?!
Anyway, I dont think that just a bunch did all these Evil acts. So many cases of german and allies did horrible horrible things, not in war times but in 'eace'. The Soliders who controld Poland in 1940 were "Invinsible". They kicked the allies armies all over the world. Russia didnt fought them then. They did it because they wanted to. They cut Rabbi's beards in the streets for "fun". They beat up kids to death because the devil know why.
Well, maybe the conclusion is that our speices suck.
Ill just ask this - if the line is between resist the regiem or fully cooperate and even taking self initiative, why so many did the "bad thing", rather then jsut stay "natural"? Why so many shoot lines of Communist PoW? so many who did the most horribel thing you can imagaine?
It didnt happened in WW1. It didnt happened in the wars after it {most of them, and i dont want to sound racist, but not the wars in africa}.
I mean, knowing that thousands of peopels die everyday at the trains you drive, that you guard, adn just do nothing is sound insane to me. Sure, the nature of man is to 'swim along', I hope that the nature to act good is stronger.
So again, sure psycholigy say that our this is natural. That what psycoligy is all about. explaining these things.
I mean, knowing that thousands of peopels die everyday at the trains you drive, that you guard, adn just do nothing is sound insane to me.
My mom drove ammo/bomb/missile trucks during Desert Storm, which were eventually used to kill people. How many actions removed from an event still constitute bloodguilt and responsibility? Should just the soldiers who committed the acts be punished? Their leaders? The leaders of those leaders? The people who made the weapons on the production lines? The factory owners? Should every German have been killed for voting Hitler into power? Is the blame on the Allies for not stopping it sooner?
