Forums → WEPR → What makes something "good" or "bad"?
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Perhaps another topic should be started on that exact point?
-Quote from Mage that gots me to do this.
So, in the thread "Why do we do what we do?", the topic began to revolve a bit around the idea of why something is necessarily "good" or "bad". Even better with this idea..is it can be asked to both theists and atheists alike!
So..to theists..most of the time the answer tends to revolve around the idea that something is good or not-good because of the deity's decision. It decides what is seen as good or bad..but my question is, why? Or..to go more in depth..is something seen as good (or pious) by the deity because it favors the idea, or does it favor the idea because it is good (or pious)?
To atheists (or apatheists..if we ever get one)..why is it we see something as good or bad? Of course..it could be because of a natural drive for what is best for our species..but what of certain beliefs of good or bad that would go against this idea? (this, of course, would begin the topic of certain groups that have a different inherent set of beliefs than others..example: cannibals.)
Feel free to delve into this topic in anyway you see fit.
[Side note: Read Euthyphro for further thoughts on the subject]
- 63 Replies
is something seen as good (or pious) by the deity because it favors the idea, or does it favor the idea because it is good (or pious)?
I think that God is bound to the laws of nature; but morals aren't necessarily natural. I don't think God really recognizes good and evil as their own types of ideas, more of just the embodiment of HE. Which kind of lends to the question of how evil exactly came into existence.
Of course..it could be because of a natural drive for what is best for our species..but what of certain beliefs of good or bad that would go against this idea?
I know a lot of atheists like to take that sort of approach to discussions like that but I doubt many of them really have such a calculating view of morals. Morals are created by cultures, which are influenced by religion. You're naturally inclined to act according to the values of the culture you grow up in, just as you're inclined to believe the religion you grow up around. But at its foundation, morality is pretty similar between cultures, when it comes to murder, stealing and the like. So I think most people don't really look too deeply into it; the morals of the world are human fabrications that are just instinctually followed.
I think that God is bound to the laws of nature
To which God are you referring? Because many claim that God (capital G denoting the Abrahamic one) is boundless and transcends nature.
To atheists (or apatheists..if we ever get one)..why is it we see something as good or bad?
As we have empathy, we know how some things feel to other persons, and as we are social animals, it's in our nature not to allow certain things done on others. Same now goes for society as a whole, even if to the detriment of some individuals or groups.
Morals are created by cultures, which are influenced by religion.
Though originally, morals stem from the time/culture in which the religion came up in. Religion has it from society, and influences society back.
i think its all about opinion, life experiences and education. honestly, i doubt if many theists would think it was right to kill their own children even if god said so (at least those with SOME humanity to them).
for me its all about whether you hurt somebody or not and for what reason.
if an action doesnt hurt somebody then i dont think theres any reason for the person to not be conisdered a good one.
To which God are you referring? Because many claim that God (capital G denoting the Abrahamic one) is boundless and transcends nature.
A lot of people who say that just don't understand their own religion. Technically, if God existed, he'd be the result of logic. You know, like some sort of continuation theory. Not saying that logic created God or anything, just that if God exists he is a logical being.
is something seen as good (or pious) by the deity because it favors the idea, or does it favor the idea because it is good (or pious)?
If in the former where something is moral because a deity says it is, we could have a deity say raping babies is moral and it would be. In the latter where a deity says it because it is moral, we are left not needing the deity fro morality.
Let's narrow this down a bit and take this from the perspective of something is moral because a deity says it is. Now from that, why would a deity not say killing is moral, or in the previous example raping babies is moral?
So if I suddenly become king of a country or something and declare that murder is legal, does that mean that every person everywhere will start to murder everyone else? Wait a second .... uh, nothing. Doesn't sound quite right.
So if I suddenly become king of a country or something and declare that murder is legal, does that mean that every person everywhere will start to murder everyone else?
Law isn't usually the only factor in restraint. For example, suicide is legal in Canada, but not everyone does it.
Law isn't usually the only factor in restraint. For example, suicide is legal in Canada, but not everyone does it.
Correct.
Now from that, why would a deity not say killing is moral, or in the previous example raping babies is moral?
Well, canonically, because that deity is benign.
Well, canonically, because that deity is benign.
I think I'm tired, but it doesn't explain much to me. I mean, essentially this just means "it is the way it is". For whatever reason, the deity is good so we have to be good.
I mean, essentially this just means "it is the way it is". For whatever reason, the deity is good so we have to be good.
I don't see anything wrong with that, especially when it comes to a deity, or more specifically an all-mighty deity (which is how it's been since Greek mythology).
Well, canonically, because that deity is benign.
The problem of it is we are again faced with the morality of it in some way being external to the deity.
Why not keep it simple and say we determine "good" and "bad" by using relatively in the context of social psychology? The element of a deity has NOTHING to do with morality and ethics (Catholic, by the way). We are wired to act a certain way when we are born, and others affect how we perceive "good" and "bad" as we age.
I believe I've explained that if it leads to good, and only good, then the thing or act is good. if it leads to ANY bad at all, it is at least partially bad.
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