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Feminism: Is it really celebrated?

Posted May 28, '14 at 1:06am

MoonFairy

MoonFairy

3,424 posts

The only issue I have with feminism is that modern day feminists don't believe in equality but in female superiority.

truuuu you are very right. That's an extremist view of it and it's gotten so popular and let it be known that I do not approve of extremist anything. So, yeah.

Another thing is that it's not as simple as 1+2=3 and 2+1=3. Women and Men are different each have their strengths and skills and they should be celebrated for being different.

We can be celebrated for being different, but at the end of the day it is as simple as we are all human beings and deserve the same rights across the board.
 

Posted May 28, '14 at 1:07am

Shenko

Shenko

1,091 posts

Sorry for double post but i wrote sexual orientation, I meant Gender. Sorry about that.

 

Posted May 28, '14 at 4:20am

Kasic

Kasic

5,750 posts

I would like to give you the definition of feminism, first.
"the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."
Sure this can be interpreted differently, but no **** it is geared towards women. Because women are not considered equal to males. That's why it stresses and advocates more advances and opportunities for women, because we don't have the same equal opportunities as males.

What it is on paper isn't the reality. Feminism is an ideology bordering on conspiracy theory at this point in time, and it's turned from an equal rights movement to something else entirely. The way it recognizes issues and tries to resolve them paints women as unable to take responsibility for their own actions and having no culpability whatsoever in their choices. Women, as presented by feminists, are powerless victims, and men are their oppressors. They want everything good without acknowledging the bad (for example, domestic violence is not solely violence against women. Domestic violence occurs in equal amounts towards men as it does women and both men and women initiate it in equal amounts. Yet feminists don't want to admit that it's dysfunctional people that are perpetrators of domestic violence, because that doesn't paint men as villains and women as innocent victims needing help) and actively try to suppress information through mob actions which sometimes become violent. I could say a lot more about it, but my point is, feminism is pretty messed up now.


last edited May 28 2014 04:23 am by Kasic
 

Posted May 28, '14 at 6:54am

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,787 posts

Knight

You cannot have one group be equal to itself. It is one, singular group. Does 1=1? yes of course. But is 2+1=3 better than 1+2=3? No. Let 3 mean you're a human being and 2+1 is male, 1+2 is female. Different, but the same outcome. Now, why would you offer 2+1 30k more on their salary than 1+2? That is why feminism matters.


Never said that there weren't inequalities that need to change, only that you can't focus on a single group to create that equality.
 

Posted May 28, '14 at 5:42pm

MoonFairy

MoonFairy

3,424 posts

Women, as presented by feminists, are powerless victims, and men are their oppressors. They want everything good without acknowledging the bad (for example, domestic violence is not solely violence against women. Domestic violence occurs in equal amounts towards men as it does women and both men and women initiate it in equal amounts.

I'd really like to know where you are getting this information from. I am pretty sure, though I'm no expert, that domestic violence does not occur in equal amounts towards women and men.

I could say a lot more about it, but my point is, feminism is pretty messed up now

Sure, maybe the movement is messed up but the idea behind it should still stand. Honestly I'd like to see more information about violent feminist riots and etc, vs. how many peaceful demonstrations have been held. I'm not saying it isn't messed up but I'd just like to see more information behind your argument.
 

Posted May 28, '14 at 7:19pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,750 posts

I'd really like to know where you are getting this information from.

To start, I'll give you these two.

Source 1
Source 2

I am pretty sure, though I'm no expert, that domestic violence does not occur in equal amounts towards women and men.

As with all metrics, it's hard to see whether something occurs in exactly the same amounts, but there's no doubt in this case that the number is close. Women are not the sole or primary victims of domestic violence by any means.

Honestly I'd like to see more information about violent feminist riots and etc, vs. how many peaceful demonstrations have been held. I'm not saying it isn't messed up but I'd just like to see more information behind your argument.

There's quite a bit of it actually, it just never makes headlines or gets talked about because feminism is seen as some great social cause and if you're against it you get shouted down by the swarm of feminists that drown you in cries of misogyny.

I was trying to specify though that not all of these mob actions become violent - those that do are almost certainly fringe group people, the kind that believe men are obsolete and such things. I didn't mean to claim that feminism is a violent movement, but it's not exempt from it either. In most cases, feminists use their massive lobbying power and numbers to literally overshout anyone opposed to them. They have the majority of public backing and strawman anyone who criticizes them as being against women in general.

There's so much wrong with feminism that I honestly don't know where to start. Could you be more specific in what you want information wise?


last edited May 28 2014 07:20 pm by Kasic
 

Posted May 28, '14 at 8:18pm

MoonFairy

MoonFairy

3,424 posts

Let it be known I never said that domestic violence only happens to women. Of course males can be victims as well. But in equal amounts? This is where I disagree.
here is a thing.
"84% of spouse abuse victims were females, and 86% of victims of dating partner abuse at were female."
"Sexual violence against men is also mainly male violence: 70% of rapes, 86% of physical assaults, and 65% of stalking acts were perpetrated by men."
Of the over 30% of people assaulted, less than 30% were male. That is not equal.

Your first source.
Again, I never said and I don't know where it was ever stated in whatever feminism pamphlet all feminists seem to have tucked away in their back pockets, that men cannot be victims of domestic abuse. It is saddening that men aren't as willing to step forward about being victims, but that is something perpetuated by gender roles, not feminism. I, personally, believe that gender roles should be destroyed. Humans are humans, and your gender does not and should not force you or shape you into having a certain attitude or personality.

Your second source.

"86% of adult men who were physically
assaulted were physically assaulted by a man.

70% of adult men who were raped were raped
by a man.

94% of the perpetrators of sexual abuse against
boys are men."

[This is my edit, I forgot to have this tidbit in here, sorry]

Are you kind of understanding where I'm coming from? That means that 14% of adult men who were assaulted were assaulted by a female. And 30% of males who were raped, were raped by women. And then 6% of boys sexually abused, were abused by females. That is not near being equal.

[end edit]

As with all metrics, it's hard to see whether something occurs in exactly the same amounts, but there's no doubt in this case that the number is close. Women are not the sole or primary victims of domestic violence by any means.

You are very right and very wrong. There is always room for doubt on either side, so I can't argue with you there. But given the information that you provided, therefore implying that you believe that information to be true, there is very strong evidence against the numbers being close.

...those that do are almost certainly fringe group people, the kind that believe men are obsolete and such things.

I believe that those fringe group people are the only ones that swarm those against feminism in their cries of misogyny.
Feminism should be "some great social cause". Because women are not treated equally in todays society. Yes okay wow we got the right to vote! Awesome! High fives for everyone! And it only took 144 years! I don't know about you, but I would rather not wait another century or so just so I can get paid the same amount as males, or walk around in the streets and feel at least somewhat safe.

last edited May 28 2014 08:24 pm by MoonFairy
 

Posted May 28, '14 at 10:40pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,750 posts

But in equal amounts? This is where I disagree.


Nearly equal. If you take into account that men are also far less likely to come forward/talk about it, calling the figures pretty much equal is not a stretch.

You're picking out numbers and ignoring others. I provided the second source as a contrast, which I realize now I never actually pointed out. The second source is from feminists and the first source references it.

Everyone quotes the statistics given by the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence: 1 in 4 women will be victims of domestic violence at some point in their lives, 1.3 million women are assaulted by their partner every year, 85% of domestic violence reported is against women. However, in a conflicting survey taken by the CDC in 2010, it was found that 40% of the victims of severe, physical domestic violence are men.


Then you look at the following:

"40% of the victims of severe, physical domestic violence are men."

"men are more likely to be victims of attacks with a deadly weapon. According to one study, 63% of males as opposed to 15% of females had a deadly weapon used against them in a fight with an intimate partner."

" there has been little research in the area of domestic abuse against men because neither the Justice Department nor any other agencies will fund such research. "

"Most shelters available will only take women and children, and some even have an age limit on the boys that they will take in (13 years old)."

Doesn't any of the above strike you as odd? That something isn't right? Clearly domestic violence against men is not so minor a problem, yet it's entirely ignored. Why? Because feminists paint it as a women's issue. They do the same thing with violence in general, even though the vast majority of violence in the world is against men.

There's more here than is being presented. The fact is, no one really cares about whether men are being domestically abused because everyone believes that they either aren't or that they deserved it. What are the actual statistics? Well, that's unclear, but it's definitely not only a women's problem.

Again, I never said and I don't know where it was ever stated in whatever feminism pamphlet all feminists seem to have tucked away in their back pockets, that men cannot be victims of domestic abuse.


It's not so much as they say it as they act like it. When pressed feminists admit that domestic violence against men occurs, but then they downplay its existence or preface it with women retaliating and it being the man's fault.

Are you kind of understanding where I'm coming from?


I do, but you're apparently dismissing the fact that men/boys are victims almost as often. Not only is there little information to go on, I do not see why the numbers would be so disparate. Men are not raised to hurt women. They aren't raised to be violent towards women. They're taught the exact opposite. Every five year old knows that boys shouldn't hit girls, yet, when a girl hits a boy, it's either funny, justified, or not her fault in some way. It does not make sense to me that men and women, who are not that different from each other at all, would have such varying numbers, as opposed to it happening in near equal amounts and one side not reporting it because of, as you mentioned, gender roles. The available data on domestic violence against men shows that it's not only women who are victims, and it doesn't add up.

But given the information that you provided, therefore implying that you believe that information to be true,


I was unclear in my presentation. The first article was referencing the second. I provided both. My stance is that there is very little hard information available because no one has really ventured down that path because of feminism telling them it isn't an issue. I know there have been cases where feminists directly opposed funding shelters for boys/men because it would mean diverting some funds away from the shelter for women, and I know that despite ~40% of men being victims of domestic abuse, there are 7500 shelters for women in England/Wales and 60 for men.

there is very strong evidence against the numbers being close.


The opposite is true. There is every reason to think that men are victims as often as women, and little to no reason to think they aren't. Societal attitudes, laws, gender roles, and other statistics of violence against men all would point to men being just as likely if not more to be victims.

Now, the question that's blurry and what you've hyperfocused on is whether men and women are violent towards each other in the same amount. I am inclined to disagree with you that men are the primary perpetrators of domestic violence by a wide margin, they are more likely to injure without use of a weapon and to cause more serious injuries in general.

I'm sorry for not being clear with what I said before. I haven't argued about this topic much and the words I've been using are ambiguous in parts.

Women initiate the violence as often as men in domestic abuse.

" While studies have consistently found that women initiate as much violence against their male partners as vice versa, two-thirds of domestic violence injuries are suffered by women."

So to be absolutely clear: Women start it as much as men, but men, being on average stronger, are more likely to cause harm. Yet men, because they are stronger, are more likely to have a weapon used against them. The number of men who are perpetrating domestic violence are not significantly higher in number, even though women are more likely to be killed.

Feminism should be "some great social cause". Because women are not treated equally in todays society.


These two sentences have nothing inherently to do with each other. Women are not treated equally in today's society, but neither are men. The areas of inequality are different and there are more issues. You are never going to get equality by focusing on one group. Feminism was justified back when women couldn't own property, vote, and what not. It's justified in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Here in the USA, it's become a superiority movement. It ignores the situation as a whole and misses the target even though it is pointing out legitimate issues.

so I can get paid the same amount as males


*Not actually the whole truth. The 77 cents to a man's dollar figure is misleading. That figure was derived using the total earnings of men against the total earnings of women. It did not account for the fields and position men and women were in. Women do not get paid less by that much as a group, they just work lower paying jobs for a mixture of reasons (not being promoted as often and the fields they choose to enter being the major two). In reality, the wage gap is insignificant as a whole, although there are certainly specific cases where women are being paid less because they are women, and the actual problem is something else.

or walk around in the streets and feel at least somewhat safe.


*Even though violence/crime worldwide is primarily against men and not women, so men should be the ones afraid.

Here's a video that nicely covers these topics. It's 17 minutes long and there are sources in the description if you want to look at those.
 

Posted May 28, '14 at 10:59pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,750 posts

My point with all of this isn't to dismiss the issues women face. It's that feminism is not what it's made out to be and that the reality is much more complicated and involved than feminists present it as. The issues in our way can only be faced when we're willing to look at the whole and understand what is happening, which can never be done when we ignore parts.

 

Posted May 29, '14 at 5:29pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,750 posts

Another video about double standards and societal perception on men and domestic violence.

 
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