Forums → Games → Gemcraft CS: semi-optimal combining method for mana gems and amps

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psorek

447 posts

Jester

Posted May 21, '14 1:33pm UTC

METHOD 1 - MIXING ORANGE/BLACK WELL
You start with g1 gems and combine them in such order:

A=(((((o+o)+o)+o)+o)+o)
B=((A+(o+o))+(o+o))
C=(B+(((o+o)+o)+(o+b)))
D=(C+(((o+o)+(o+b))+b))
E=((((o+o)+o)+(o+b))+b)
F=(((o+b)+b)+((b+b)+b))
G=(E+F)
H=(D+G)

H is the final orange/black grade 5 gem with cost of grade 6 and huge specials. You can use this formula only once.

METHOD 2 - SUPERGEM UPGRADING
You can apply it to pure orange, pure black, orange/black and orange/black/red gems.
first, get your gem to upgrade (I'll call it "g&quot

A=(g+g)+((g+g)+g)
B=((((((g+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)
C=(g+g)
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

D is the final supergem with grade +3 and cost x16. You can (even should) repeat this method every time when upgrading gem.

You use method 1 once and then on resulting gem method 2 till your mana ends for mana gem. Just don't forget to add red at some point, best g1 to one of 16 copies of your gem in method 2.
For amplifiers I recommend now pure orange (black isn't amped anymore) so you grab g1 and apply method 2. Amplifiers with this method should be 3 grades lower than mana gem.

[EDIT]
After a moment of thinking I realized that this metod works also for killing gems, but you have to farm kills on black/red gem and add it in some moment. Feel free to try.

METHOD 1 - MIXING ORANGE/BLACK WELL
You start with g1 gems and combine them in such order:

A=(((((o+o)+o)+o)+o)+o)
B=((A+(o+o))+(o+o))
C=(B+(((o+o)+o)+(o+b))) 
D=(C+(((o+o)+(o+b))+b)) 
E=((((o+o)+o)+(o+b))+b)
F=(((o+b)+b)+((b+b)+b))
G=(E+F)
H=(D+G)

H is the final orange/black grade 5 gem with cost of grade 6 and huge specials. You can use this formula only once.

METHOD 2 - SUPERGEM UPGRADING
You can apply it to pure orange, pure black, orange/black and orange/black/red gems.
first, get your gem to upgrade (I'll call it "g")

A=(g+g)+((g+g)+g)
B=((((((g+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)
C=(g+g)
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

D is the final supergem with grade +3 and cost x16. You can (even should) repeat this method every time when upgrading gem.

[EDIT]
After a moment of thinking I realized that this metod works also for killing gems, but you have to farm kills on black/red gem and add it in some moment. Feel free to try.

84 Replies

$fractalman$

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fractalman

636 posts

Nomad

Posted May 24, '14 9:49pm UTC Edited May 24, '14 9:54pm UTC by fractalman

@ cooltang:
maximize the power boost per skillpoint spent. Divide the value in the following table by the cost per level, and spend on whatever has the highest value.

freeze*/bolt/beam/etc: 0.5% per level, tops.
amplifiers: 0.6% per level. (average).
orange: 1%/ 6% per level. (1% if below level 100: 4% if above level 100. )
yellow, red, black: 5% per level, each.
green/blue/purple/cyan: usually worthless.
resonance (if you have it): 3%/1.5% per level. **
True colors: 6%/10%/13% (6 if using pure gems for damage, 10 if using red/yellow, 13% if using red/yellow/black)
fusion: roughly 1.2% per level: is worth ~1.6% per level at level 15. (I have not reached the final cap for fusion yet.)
mana stream: 4%/8%/0.5% (not angering/doing lots of optimized angering/mana farming)

traps: 0.2%/5%/15% (below 100, using pure orange traps to supplement/using red/orange/black traps)
*freeze becomes OP'd once you get to level 400 ish and can perma-freeze. wake of eternity is pretty powerfull as well, but as you'll notice once you get the skill, it only sheds 1% chargetime per level, rather than 1.5% per level.

**3% if you're not into big-time mana farming yet. 1.5% if you are mana farming.

@ cooltang:
maximize the power boost per skillpoint spent. Divide the value in the following table by the cost per level, and spend on whatever has the highest value.

freeze*/bolt/beam/etc: 0.5% per level, tops. 
amplifiers: 0.6% per level.  (average). 
orange: 1%/ 6% per level. (1% if below level 100: 4% if above level 100. )
yellow, red, black: 5% per level, each.
green/blue/purple/cyan: usually worthless.  
resonance (if you have it): 3%/1.5% per level. **
True colors: 6%/10%/13% (6 if using pure gems for damage, 10 if using red/yellow, 13% if using red/yellow/black)
fusion: roughly 1.2% per level: is worth ~1.6% per level at level 15. (I have not reached the final cap for fusion yet.)
mana stream: 4%/8%/0.5% (not angering/doing lots of optimized angering/mana farming)

**3% if you're not into big-time mana farming yet. 1.5% if you are mana farming.

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borthelcash

104 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 4:35am UTC Edited May 25, '14 4:36am UTC by borthelcash

Used thunderrider's modification of psorek's v2 32 combine for first iteration, then ran psorek's original v2 for the second gem.

1st gem
A=(((((o+r)+o)+o)+o)+o) thunderrider mod
B=((A+(o+o))+(o+o))
C=(B+(((o+o)+o)+(o+b)))
D=(C+(((o+o)+(o+b))+b))
E=((((o+o)+o)+(o+b))+b)
F=(((o+b)+b)+((b+b)+b))
G=(E+F)
H=(D+G)

2nd gem
A=(((((o+o)+o)+o)+o)+o)
B=((A+(o+o))+(o+o))
C=(B+(((o+o)+o)+(o+b)))
D=(C+(((o+o)+(o+b))+b))
E=((((o+o)+o)+(o+b))+b)
F=(((o+b)+b)+((b+b)+b))
G=(E+F)
H=(D+G)

Then upgraded first gem by first duplicating the second gem 15 times, and the first gem once, to combine with itself (to retain hit level). So, there's a total of 17 gems; the main ORB managem, its dupe, and 14 OB dupes of the second gem, with a spare OB to upgrade later. After I upgraded the managem to G+3, I repeated the process with the second OB gem to a grade 8 OB. This "tick-tock" process using the 16 combine was repeated until the gem grade shown. In other words:

"Tick"
A=(MainORB+ORB)+((g+g)+g)
B=((((((g+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)
C=(g+g)
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

"Tock" (spare OB to upgrade)
A=(g+g)+((g+g)+g)
B=((((((g+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)
C=(g+g)
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

Though, after all of this, I fear chain might disappear before G90e, so I might do a "Tock" with the ORB managem in a future run.

[img]http://s17.postimg.org/6tdqty84v/g78e_improved.png[/img]

Used thunderrider's modification of psorek's v2 32 combine for first iteration, then ran psorek's original v2 for the second gem.

1st gem
A=(((((o+[b]r[/b])+o)+o)+o)+o) thunderrider mod
B=((A+(o+o))+(o+o))
C=(B+(((o+o)+o)+(o+b)))
D=(C+(((o+o)+(o+b))+b))
E=((((o+o)+o)+(o+b))+b)
F=(((o+b)+b)+((b+b)+b))
G=(E+F)
H=(D+G)

2nd gem
A=(((((o+o)+o)+o)+o)+o)
B=((A+(o+o))+(o+o))
C=(B+(((o+o)+o)+(o+b)))
D=(C+(((o+o)+(o+b))+b))
E=((((o+o)+o)+(o+b))+b)
F=(((o+b)+b)+((b+b)+b))
G=(E+F)
H=(D+G)

"Tick"
A=(MainORB+ORB)+((g+g)+g)
B=((((((g+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)
C=(g+g)
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

"Tock" (spare OB to upgrade)
A=(g+g)+((g+g)+g)
B=((((((g+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)
C=(g+g)
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

Though, after all of this, I fear chain might disappear before G90e, so I might do a "Tock" with the ORB managem in a future run.

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borthelcash

104 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 4:50am UTC

Oh, forgot to post the reference gem for the first iteration with ORB (60 skill level);

4.57 chain hit length
10.31 mana gain per hit
x1.23 bloodbound (0.229 per hit level)

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thunderrider

641 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 5:11am UTC Edited May 25, '14 5:12am UTC by thunderrider

Wait I'm confused.

So you make 2 ROB & 14 OB for each upgrade? I recommended only add a 2nd ROB(besides the first, which is the managem itself, not a duplicate) every 20-30 gem grades to keep R from dying but never growing at all and squishing 80% time.

Edit- you have less chain, much higher blood with much less hits, and higher mana. I think you have max upgraded amps, and because I upgraded with more chain than needed.
Right?

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borthelcash

104 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 5:26am UTC

@thunderrider

Edit- you have less chain, much higher blood with much less hits, and higher mana. I think you have max upgraded amps, and because I upgraded with more chain than needed.
Right?

The amps cost 4.08e24, so they are maxed for now. And, even plugging in the main ORB managem and its duplicate with 14 other OB gems of same grade for every "Tick" iteration, then combining to grade+3, the chain hit at grade 78e is only ~1.115 before bloodbound, much less than the 4.57 I started out with at grade 5.

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thunderrider

641 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 5:32am UTC

Can u get on chat again, I'm bored. PS- your pic is too tiny for me to see, and if
I zoom its too blurry, can you read out the stats to me? so I can compare once I get +4 amps.

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borthelcash

104 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 7:08am UTC Edited May 25, '14 7:17am UTC by borthelcash

After showing the thunder the gem I posted, he went on to test different ratios of ORB gems in the "Tick" operation. They are as follows:

3 grade 8 ORB to 13 grade 8 OB (3/13) - same method with grade 5 gems
A=(T+T)+((T+g)+g)
B=((((((g+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)
C=(g+g)
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

4 grade 8 ORB to 12 grade 8 OB (4/12) - same method with grade 5 gems
A=(T+T)+((T+g)+g)
B=((((((T+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)
C=(g+g)
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

The control gem (2/14 ratio, method I used) at G11 (G14e) is -

7.26 chain hit length
Leeches 458.37 mana per hit

3/13 ratio:
7.98 chain hit length
Leeches 458.19 mana per hit

4/12 ratio:
8.29 chain hit length
Leeches 457.95 mana per hit

Bloodbound is the same across all gems, which is x1.84 (0.839 per hit level).

At grade 26 supergem -

2/14
15.19 chain hit length
Leeches 1,474,739.34 mana per hit

3/13
19.51 chain hit length
Leeches 1,474,739.29 mana per hit

Bloodbound increment is identical - +5.535 per hit level.

To prove that just adding a grade 1 red at the end of a 16 combine gem isn't the most optimal, here is a grade 41 supergem with a grade 1 red in the initial 32 combine and one where the grade 1 red is added at the end -

Red at start:
71.93 chain hit length
Leeches 7,665,361,431 mana per hit
Bloodbound - +36.54 per hit level

Red added at end:
37.92 chain hit length
Leeches 5,555,814,392 mana per hit
Bloodbound - +29.232 per hit level

Please test for all cases, but if others' tests turn out identical at 0 hits and 60 skill level for orange, red, black, and fusion, then it is as someone (ronin316?) said; order of operations matters.

I and thunder each share the credit for this proof equally.

After showing the thunder the gem I posted, he went on to test different ratios of ORB gems in the "Tick" operation. They are as follows:

3 grade 8 ORB to 13 grade 8 OB (3/13) - same method with grade 5 gems
A=(T+T)+((T+g)+g) 
B=((((((g+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g) 
C=(g+g) 
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

4 grade 8 ORB to 12 grade 8 OB (4/12) - same method with grade 5 gems
A=(T+T)+((T+g)+g) 
B=((((((T+g)+g)+g)+g)+g)+g) 
C=(g+g) 
D=(((B+C)+C)+A)

The control gem (2/14 ratio, method I used) at G11 (G14e) is -

7.26 chain hit length
Leeches 458.37 mana per hit

3/13 ratio:
7.98 chain hit length
Leeches 458.19 mana per hit

4/12 ratio:
8.29 chain hit length
Leeches 457.95 mana per hit

Bloodbound is the same across all gems, which is x1.84 (0.839 per hit level).

At grade 26 supergem -

2/14 
15.19 chain hit length
Leeches 1,474,739.34 mana per hit

3/13 
19.51 chain hit length 
Leeches 1,474,739.29 mana per hit

Bloodbound increment is identical - +5.535 per hit level.

Red at start:
71.93 chain hit length
Leeches 7,665,361,431 mana per hit
Bloodbound - +36.54 per hit level

Red added at end:
37.92 chain hit length 
Leeches 5,555,814,392 mana per hit 
Bloodbound - +29.232 per hit level

Please test for all cases, but if others' tests turn out identical at 0 hits and 60 skill level for orange, red, black, and fusion, then it is as someone (ronin316?) said; [b]order of operations matters[/b].

I and thunder each share the credit for this proof equally.

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thunderrider

641 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 7:18am UTC

Yep, you took the time to type it neatly, while I tested it and used an entire hour on it :P

And...I also typed it all into the chat. I demand more credit!(In the form of Cookie is fine) :P

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borthelcash

104 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 7:21am UTC Edited May 25, '14 7:21am UTC by borthelcash

Oh well, the edit time limit is already exceeded, so I shall correct it as so: "All data within the proof were tested by thunder in the span of one hour. I merely organized it into a more presentable format. Majority of the credit goes to thunderrider."

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thunderrider

641 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 7:45am UTC

Lolz :P

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borthelcash

104 posts

Peasant

Posted May 25, '14 7:53am UTC Edited May 25, '14 7:54am UTC by borthelcash

Grade 82e gem FTW!