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TheAngelOfWar
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TheAngelOfWar
206 posts
Nomad

http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-cannibalism-be-illegal

55 say Yes cannibalism should be illegal
45 say No cannibalism should not be illegal

Please. Someone give me reason to believe in humanity again.

  • 146 Replies
TheAngelOfWar
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TheAngelOfWar
206 posts
Nomad

Christians were afraid of pagans because the Church oppressed them, hunted them and generally purged them as well as punished anyone who even remotely associated with pagans. Any citizen would be afraid of it. Not because cannibalism got into that society and that is because first of all, it was no single society, but divided in multiple groups even in the dark ages. Besides, we have no reason to believe that pagans being cannibals was NOT another lie spread by the Church to discourage people from associating with any of them, directly or indirectly.

I think you give our ancestors less credit than they deserve, they have the same brain and same capability to rationalize, the "Dark Ages" is a term used by scholars in the Renaissance to undermine their sovereigns and to push for a "Mandate of Heaven", this is pretty easy to see if you look at the time line of the "Dark Ages" since it never really started or ended. Napoleon Bonaparte said "There are two things that unite men; fear and interest." and clearly fear of the unknown is what did it, the order of the Church only legitimized it.

First of all, did you just pull the "nearly half (maybe more) records of cannibalism incidents?" part out of a magic hat? Because it doesn't seem like it's anywhere near that amount. But even if it is, I was talking about the specific ONA example, since we've already shot down the previous 'timeline' you so delicately set up. Doesn't seem like you are anywhere near accepting it, but the examples you've brought up of Cannibalism throughout history were totally irrelevant ot the point, like Fish said. What you did was bring up some examples of people who were directly or indirectly associated with Cannibalism and who engaged in some other brutal/violent/immoral act. Sorry but that doesn't mean you can associate Cannibalism with any of those acts.

Yes it is correct, it is because all of it is copied from wikipedia page about cannibalism and wikipedia is 97% correct. On that list is 'at least' nearly all of the recorded incidents.

Again, since the examples were unrelated, we cannot even put them on a scale.

I don't understand why cannibalism incidents are unrelated to cannibalism, can you explain what I'm missing?
Take out some sheets of paper of equal weight; list every incident on individual sheets; place them on the scale in their correct place; evaluate.

No, that's what a country in a far worse economical situation than pretty much any nation in the world right now would have a chance of doing in a nation-wide level. Therefore, like I said, unrelated to the point.

Even if that's not the case and we just accept that there are countries in the world right now (which are not) that are in such a bad financial situation that citizens resort to cannibalism in their majority, neither Ukraine, nor Greece belong in this . Therefore, the example is false.

No nation in the world is in a stage to do this because it is extremely rare to be in a stage like that, this isn't about the odds this is about what happens when it is.
I have given examples of when this does become the case therefore my 'fact' is correct unless we ignore that it ever happened.

This is still related to cannibalism, this is still an example of when cannibalism is 'or' at least can be okay, the example also clearly doesn't involve any smiles or happiness.

TheAngelOfWar
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TheAngelOfWar
206 posts
Nomad

I'm not sure what you mean by "ban blue laws". The government makes, amends, and repeals laws. It doesn't ban them.

Alright.

Seriously, where do you get these straw men? There's no logical consistency here at all. I'm arguing that people are entitled to whatever legally permissible funerary rights they choose for themselves. You're pretending this means we have to legalize everything and anything anyone considers part of their culture.

There is one and only one thing and one thing only that is making this okay in your perspective though and that is culture and that is my point. You know it isn't okay to cannibalize in general, you come to their defense only because of 'culture' why not defend the cultures that do the listed? It is also their culture. I see why not a why a people who are the complete reverse of modern humans not abide to our 'very diverse' customs, all across the world we have different beliefs and different customs yet nearly all of us can agree that cannibalism is not okay (debate.org not even representing a favorable fraction), we are restricted to specific things (laws) and specific customs (tradition) and those are all shaped by the society that revolves around us, we are an international people now. Yet they 'choose' to be what Romans and Han dynasty even during their collapse would agree to being barbarians, they 'choose' to disconnect themselves, they 'choose' to give their children unequal opportunities, they choose to stay stuck in a dead era, they choose to ignore the society that surrounds them and that society in 2015 'is' the Earth. Tradition is one thing; being allowed to live in a poor state because they are too insignificant to care about is another. Why should they have this practice that 'forces' themselves to be uncivilized, why should they have this practice because 'we' did not connect with them. Because they choose to is not enough of a good reason to have their people suffer, The British chose to make their colonies suffer, the Romans chose to become degenerate, the people chose to change seeing the error in their ways. If scripture calls for you to give sacrifice you cannot give should you hang? Should the Jewish abide to laws that enforces harsh ways of life because it is in their tradition a thousand years ago? In your mind you say no but what if they're use to it? Should you defend those beliefs when you know that it is a new dawn, a new era, and new world. Should their generations to come live in poverty, ignorance and isolation because of an old age custom?


My point exactly. Preserving the body would not be the best thing to do.

Yet the culture you defend does not do such.

I'm arguing that people are entitled to whatever legally permissible funerary rights they choose for themselves. You're pretending this means we have to legalize everything and anything anyone considers part of their culture.

You don't choose rights for yourself; they are given to you. Accept it or not it is how it is.

I'm not bringing them up. I have not stated that it was a war crime nor an ICD.

Are...are you kidding me?
page 5: "Technically Yes. Cannibalism is listed as a war crime by the U.N or more specifically the WW2 Tribunal against the Japanese."
page 7: "Cannibalism is an ICD and so are they. If cannibalism is okay with the same logic those would be okay with consent. They aren't really okay with consent."
Also, from the paragraph that I was responding to in the first place: "We have established that cannibalism as a fetish is an ICD and now I have pointed out that it is still an ICD even when it is not in fetish form."
You only redacted the ICD claim later. In fact, it was right after stating "I don't see why you are pointing them out [...]".

Go back to those same pages and you'll see that I told you when I was wrong and have not brought back those points since then.

No it's because if you go online and look up the lists of cannibal incidents nearly all of them do and those that don't did it for survival.

I admit that statement was ignorant.

Does this mean we should regard any and all other incidents of cannibalism as legally the same thing?

Let's not run in circles, you know I have said there are exceptions.

No, it isn't. Manslaughter ≠ Murder. They are two very different things.

Manslaughter is third degree murder actually, it may vary on state though.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

I think you give our ancestors less credit than they deserve, they have the same brain and same capability to rationalize, the "Dark Ages" is a term used by scholars in the Renaissance to undermine their sovereigns and to push for a "Mandate of Heaven", this is pretty easy to see if you look at the time line of the "Dark Ages" since it never really started or ended. Napoleon Bonaparte said "There are two things that unite men; fear and interest." and clearly fear of the unknown is what did it, the order of the Church only legitimized it.
http://i.imgur.com/HFR050R.png

Yes it is correct, it is because all of it is copied from wikipedia page about cannibalism and wikipedia is 97% correct. On that list is 'at least' nearly all of the recorded incidents.
(see above)

Take out some sheets of paper of equal weight; list every incident on individual sheets; place them on the scale in their correct place; evaluate.
No, how about this: You take out the paper and you list every incident related to your choice of liquor, bureaucracy, homosexuality, organized religion, sporting events, stoneflies, and erosion, then you tell me how good and morally correct that is based on what you've listed. Don't worry; I'll wait.

There is one and only one thing and one thing only that is making this okay in your perspective though and that is culture and that is my point.
Your point is false and founded upon unwarranted assumption.

You know it isn't okay to cannibalize in general, [...]
Actually, it is. That's kind of the whole point of every objection to all of your arguments in this thread.

I see why not a why a people who are the complete reverse of modern humans not abide to our 'very diverse' customs, [...]
. . .
. . .
Would you mind running that by me again?

Yet they 'choose' to be what Romans and Han dynasty even during their collapse would agree to being barbarians, they 'choose' to disconnect themselves, they 'choose' to give their children unequal opportunities, they choose to stay stuck in a dead era, they choose to ignore the society that surrounds them and that society in 2015 'is' the Earth.
No, actually, they don't (repeat four times), and society is a human construct; Earth isn't.

Tradition is one thing; being allowed to live in a poor state because they are too insignificant to care about is another.
So?

Why should they have this practice that 'forces' themselves to be uncivilized, [...]
It doesn't, as you've been told ... many times already.

The British chose to make their colonies suffer, [...]
No, they didn't.

[...] the Romans chose to become degenerate, [...]
No, they didn't.

[...] the people chose to change seeing the error in their ways.
Yes, quite frequently. On occasion, they may have even succeeded.

If scripture calls for you to give sacrifice you cannot give should you hang? Should the Jewish abide to laws that enforces harsh ways of life because it is in their tradition a thousand years ago? In your mind you say no but what if they're use to it?
Actually, what I say is: Should I care? Do you honestly believe that it is in any way my goal, obligation, ambition, or intention to forcibly prevent any person from willingly subjecting him/her self to whatever you perceive to be harsh, uncivilized, barbaric, cruel, or inhumane treatment?

Yet the culture you defend does not do such.
Sorry, what culture is that and why do you think I would defend it?

You don't choose rights for yourself; they are given to you. Accept it or not it is how it is.
I apologize. That should have been funerary rites.

I'm not bringing them up. I have not stated that it was a war crime nor an ICD.

Go back to those same pages and you'll see that I told you when I was wrong and have not brought back those points since then.
So, again, you're saying not only that you didn't state either of those things, but also that you redacted both after stating them. Also, assuming that you have by now reread those same pages, you should be well aware that you did not admit to being wrong about the ICD claim until you started this charade of ad nauseam.

Let's not run in circles, you know I have said there are exceptions.
Exceptions which you've entirely failed to justify, or even account for in most of your arguments (which happens to be the whole and entire point of my argument; that one you were just complaining about before).

Manslaughter is third degree murder actually, it may vary on state though.
No, it really isn't. Your own example: "Manslaughter, the guy who ran someone over did not mean to kill the person while checking a text. Still took someones life with no justification thus it is still murder."
Murder of any degree is only possible with the intention to kill. It varies only in how much planning is involved. Therefore, involuntary manslaughter (as in your example) is not murder.
set A (Manslaughter)={Voluntary,Involuntary}
set B (Murder)={FDM,SDM,Voluntary}

Involuntary Manslaughter ∈ Manslaughter
Involuntary Manslaughter ∉ Murder

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/06/Venn-diagram-AB.svg/330px-Venn-diagram-AB.svg.png
∴ A ≠ B
I.e. Manslaughter ≠ Murder

SportShark
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SportShark
2,983 posts
Scribe

Wholly irrelevant Batman! [picture]

So in your mind only you are allowed to deviate from the topic and when someone else responds to it you post some stupid picture and accuse them of being the one off topic? Nice try at taking your manure and shoveling onto someone else.

No, how about this: You take out the paper and you list every incident related to your choice of liquor, bureaucracy, homosexuality, organized religion, sporting events, stoneflies, and erosion, then you tell me how good and morally correct that is based on what you've listed. Don't worry; I'll wait.

No how about this: Stop thinking that you're a sarcastic genius.

Actually, it is. That's kind of the whole point of every objection to all of your arguments in this thread.

I forgot whether you're from the US or not, but in America you're usually allowed to have your own opinions, no matter how deranged and ridiculous they are. So, whatever. Mr.HumanFleshPreferred.
Now here's my opinion since we're back to personal beliefs again. Cannibalism is an obsessive cultural taboo that quickly leads to a depraved, disrespectful view towards human beings.
Where'd you get this notion that it's all OK anyway? To many years in a "Everythings ok, no matter how sick and vile, tolerate everything except the wholesome" public school? Maybe you should post a meme to enlighten me. You'll feel so clever, right?
----------
Now, it'd be great if everyone could end the stultiloquent chatter that has nothing to do with the original topic at hand.

@TheAngelOfWar I understand and agree with some of what you're saying, but it should be fairly obvious to you that even when you're perfectly right that people like these always find a weasel around and turn things back on you, take what you're saying and flip the meaning all around and try come back really fast and condescend on you and then quickly move on, pretending to not understand and acting like you're a lunatic, Etc...
Idk if it's deliberate and thought out, or a semi subconscious flippant "Well, up your's" thought pattern or what.

Doombreed
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Doombreed
7,024 posts
Templar

@TheAngelOfWar

Take out some sheets of paper of equal weight; list every incident on individual sheets; place them on the scale in their correct place; evaluate.

But we've already been through your examples of cannibalism! How many times? Just like the Japanese lieutenant you brought up some pages ago! What all of them did was associate with gruesome, immoral and violent acts and with Cannibalism. That makes these acts immoral and violent, not Cannibalism itself.

At any rate, the only thing wrong with cannibalism in the examples you've presented is that it was involuntary. But then again it was committed after the murder of the ones to be eaten, so, the true immoral act is the murder itself! Stop making this about cannibalism since all the examples you've pulled are really about the other acts.

No nation in the world is in a stage to do this because it is extremely rare to be in a stage like that, this isn't about the odds this is about what happens when it is.
I have given examples of when this does become the case therefore my 'fact' is correct unless we ignore that it ever happened.

If by examples you mean anything from the timeline you set up, sorry but, we've been through this, they are all unrelated to the point. Not to mention that none of your examples involve an entire nation engaging in Cannibalism (the possible exception wopuld have been Ukraine in 42-43 but aside from not actually being nation-wide, it is irrelevant as well). So you've been talking about a fictional scenario all along. Great.

This is still related to cannibalism, this is still an example of when cannibalism is 'or' at least can be okay, the example also clearly doesn't involve any smiles or happiness.

Which one? The ONA in Ukraine? Because that's what I was talking about with that phrase.

@SportShark

So in your mind only you are allowed to deviate from the topic and when someone else responds to it you post some stupid picture and accuse them of being the one off topic? Nice try at taking your manure and shoveling onto someone else.

He's gotten off point so many times that there is nothing else we can do. What he actually does is argumentum ad lapidem , the only difference is that he tries and fails to explain why he views Cannibalism the way he does.

No how about this: Stop thinking that you're a sarcastic genius.

Whoa. What happened to "letting people deviate from the topic"? We are allowed to discuss this any way we want. And if you've happened to read all that's been said (I know it's a lot) you know this discussion is running in circles. Some sarcasm is in order to make it a bit more entertaining at least. Break the routine

I forgot whether you're from the US or not, but in America you're usually allowed to have your own opinions, no matter how deranged and ridiculous they are. So, whatever. Mr.HumanFleshPreferred.

Where'd you get this notion that it's all OK anyway? To many years in a "Everythings ok, no matter how sick and vile, tolerate everything except the wholesome" public school? Maybe you should post a meme to enlighten me. You'll feel so clever, right?

Now who is being sarcastic?

Now here's my opinion since we're back to personal beliefs again. Cannibalism is an obsessive cultural taboo that quickly leads to a depraved, disrespectful view towards human beings.

You asked a handful of questions in the previous page. So, if you want to keep it on topic (which is quite what we've been trying to do since the start of page 7), here's a question: When consenting adults make up both parties and are ok with it, how is it an obsessive cultural taboo?

I understand and agree with some of what you're saying, but it should be fairly obvious to you that even when you're perfectly right that people like these always find a weasel around and turn things back on you, take what you're saying and flip the meaning all around and try come back really fast and condescend on you and then quickly move on, pretending to not understand and acting like you're a lunatic, Etc...

Now you are being funny. Well, so we are "these people" huh? I'd advise you to read my entry post in this thread again but I doubt that would change your mind.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,920 posts
Grand Duke

It would probably be for the best for everyone to get their main points/arguments down again without any hint of emotion or disdain or contempt, select the best objective evidence of the pick to support their stances, and start from scratch again. This is just degenerating into quoting back and worth, splintering the arguments and losing all the points/evidence raised into minute details that become individual arguments of their own.

It would also be relevant to raise the point that cannibalism being discussed is hinged upon permission granting (while alive), and doesn't involve murder. Everyone has disagreed that cannibalism if committed with murder, is criminally wrong and abhorrent, so let's not keep harping upon it. Murder also has a very specific legal meaning, so if manslaughter, murder and the different degrees of killings are brought up, it might also be worthwhile to distinguish them, instead of using them interchangeably.

Doombreed
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Doombreed
7,024 posts
Templar

It would probably be for the best for everyone to get their main points/arguments down again without any hint of emotion or disdain or contempt, select the best objective evidence of the pick to support their stances, and start from scratch again.

This is exactly what SportShark tried to do in the previous page and we replied the questions to let the discussion flow.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,920 posts
Grand Duke

Ah, I did not see that page, that's good then.

------------
In any case, I would defend legalised cannibalism if the statues put into place rigorously define and ring fence the act such that it does not intrude incompatibly into other areas of criminal law.

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

So in your mind only you are allowed to deviate from the topic [...]
1 Show me at least one (1) instance of my doing so.
2 He wasn't merely deviating from the topic; he was handwaving it by introducing several unrelated points in lieu of a counter-argument, and not for the first time either (see his Chewbacca defense on page 7).

No how about this: Stop thinking that you're a sarcastic genius.
1 Stop making ridiculously inane assumptions about the thoughts of someone you've never met whose opinions you've never heard.
2 What gives you the idea that I'm being sarcastic here?

Where'd you get this notion that it's all OK anyway?
Reason, which I encourage you to use whenever you feel the need to voice your personal beliefs. Only then will I dignify them with a response.
Doombreed
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Doombreed
7,024 posts
Templar

What gives you the idea that I'm being sarcastic here?

Well, Fish, not saying it's bad but isn't this sarcasm?:

Yes, finally the scientific community has the proof it's been searching for**: All religious and spiritualistic beliefs are the product of diseased minds! Now we can all hang up our lab coats and take up golfing full-time
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

No, that was a joke and a reductio ad absurdum. Anyway, I'm not saying I haven't been sarcastic at some point. I'm pointing out the fact that no part of what he was quoting from is at all sarcastic.

Doombreed
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Doombreed
7,024 posts
Templar

Fair enough. Though I did get the feeling he was talking a bit more generally about you. Anyway, he can answer himself when he arrives, so that's off-topic.

To get back on topic:

In any case, I would defend legalised cannibalism if the statues put into place rigorously define and ring fence the act such that it does not intrude incompatibly into other areas of criminal law.

I agree, regulations and definitions have to be strict on the matter. Intention, cause, conditions, pretty much everything has to come into play.

So I suppose that since it has already been pointed out that there are no laws fully covering Cannibalism that it is "ok" from a legal point of view if both parties are made up of consenting adults who are under no outside influence when they make this decision.

SportShark
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SportShark
2,983 posts
Scribe

Stop making ridiculously inane assumptions about the thoughts of someone you've never met whose opinions you've never heard.

About those assumptions of opinions, how can you say that I've never heard your opinions!? You practically live in the WEPR forum where you continually voice them.
I know that you have no feelings or sense of right or wrong, but you should not think less of those who have them. Feelings aren't really such a horrible, irrational thing you know. No one ever told me or explained to me why cannibalism is wrong, its just one of those things that no normal person would think of doing. The vast majority of people are not born as racists, cannibals, or pedophiles. We develop these things from our immediate family or caretakers (or lack thereof). I don't know how you managed to reason out that cannibalism is OK, but if this same logic says that it's ok, I sure as hell don't want it telling me what other decisions I should make in my life or what I should believe. I hope I haven't strayen to far off topic.
Doombreed
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Doombreed
7,024 posts
Templar

I hope I haven't strayen to far off topic.

Sorry SportShark but now you are being a hypocrite...

SportShark
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SportShark
2,983 posts
Scribe

Sorry SportShark but now you are being a hypocrite...

In order to be such, I would have to criticize someone for doing something which I claim not to do. I may have pointed out in the past that we were getting off topic, but don't ever recall saying that I haven't gone off topic.

I was expecting a negative reaction, but nothing this lame.

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