Communist threads on AG inevitably result in mass flaming. The Communist club is a prime example, even as it stated only post if you are communist, unsurprisingly many people did. However the common theme among these people is that they do noot know of the ideas behind communism or how it is meant to come about. Regardless of my ideological beliefs communism is a particular interest of mine and I would like to lay out once and for all in relatively simple terms what is meant to happen, according to the original idead put forward by Marx.
Govt: Absolute Monarchy Means of Production: Land; land ownership goves power. Social Organisation: Aristocracy is the dominant group controlling the mass of the population, peasanats, who work on their estates. peasants are virtually owned by their lords and masters. Revolutionary Change: The revolutionary class is the middle class (merchants, traders, manufacturers). As this group ggets wealthier, it begins to break down the rules of a feudal society which hinder its development eg wants an economy based on money and labourers free to work in towns.
Stage 2:Bourgeois (Middle Class) Revolution
The growth of trade and industry sees the middle classes becoming larer and more powerful. Eventually they want to reshape society and government to suit their interests, eg they want to have a say in how the country is run and do not want landed aristocrats determining national policy. The middle classes take power from the monarch and aristocracy. The bourgeois revolution can be violent, as in France in 1789, or more peaceful and gradual, as in Britain during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.
Stage 3:Capitalism
Govt: Parliamentary democracy with civil rights, elections, freedom of the press, etc, but largely run by the middle classes. Means of Production: Industrial premises, factories, capital goods like machinery, banks owned by capitalists. Land becomes less importnt as industry and trade create greater share of national wealth. Social Organisation: Middle classes or bourgeoise are the dominantor ruling class although the aristocracy may still hold onto some postitions of power and prestige. The mass of the population move from being peasants to being industrial workers - the proletariat, who are forced to work long hours in poor conditions for little reward. Revolutionary Change: As capitalism grows so does the proletariat, since more workers are needed to work in factpries and commercial premises. Great wealth and materials are produced, but these are not shared out fairly. A snall bourgeois gets increasingly wealthy while the proletariat remains poor. Gradually, the proletariat dvelops a class consciousness and realises that it is being oppressed as a class.
Stage 4:Socialist Revolution
The proletariat moves from class comsciousness to a revolutionary consciousness aided by revolutionary leaders (often from the middle classes). They now form the great bulk of the population whilst the bourgeoisie are a tiny minority. They rise up and seize power, ousting their class enemies - the bourgeoise. The socialist revolution starts in a highly industrialised economy.
Stage 5:Socialism
Govt: Workers control the state. At first government is exercised through the dictatorship of the proletariat, a period of strict control nescessary to deal with counter revolution (old capitalist enemies trying to recover power) and to root out non socialist attitudes. Means of production: Factory machines etc, as in the capitlaist period but not owmed by individuals. They are owned collectively by everybody. Social Organisation: Everybody is equal, the class system is brought to an end. Wealth and goods produced by industry are shared out fairly. Everybody has an equal entitlement to good housing and decent standards of living.
Stage 6:The Transition to Communism
The need for government declines because there are no competing classes.
Stage 7:COMMUNISM
Govt: There is no state, just people who are interested in managing the day to day business of keeping society going. Social Organisation: Everybody is equal. There is an abundance of goods produced by machinery rather than by workers' labour, so everyone has much more leisure time. Ppeople work on the priciple,'From each, according to their ability, to each according to their needs' they can take out what they need from a central pool and contribute to society in whatever way they can.(Marxs view of Communist society is not very clear).
So thats my shortened easy to read guide on Marxism/Communism whatever you want to call it. Read the post dont just read the title and commment and flame about communism pls.
That's pretty much the Marxist theory of how communism is supposed to happen. It either was suppressed and destroyed by the cold war era( thus making everyone oppose communism witout question ) or it just takes a very large amount of time; there are still people needed to do the dirty jobs nobody wants to do that requires full time work.
In all, Socialism would be the only practical form of government for our time, and it would last several decades before technology improves enough so individual people can have their increased relaxation and just simply enjoy life. ( or Communism ) But, some of us will be of age to be political leaders if any of us actualy make that. And it would be intresting to see China go from the semi-socialist state it is to full blown communism in its true state.
Thank you Woody I have just started AS level history and the first topic we do is the Russian Revolution and Stalins rise to power/early rule. Unfortunately we have never had a satisfying explanation of the idealogy. So again thank you for helping me understand I'm sure it will help in the long run.
And it would be intresting to see China go from the semi-socialist state it is to full blown communism in its true state.
I wager it will not, just because of the form of communism in China at the moment has many many forms. It will probably revert back to capitalism sooner or later. It has many elements of capitalism already.
Thank you Woody I have just started AS level history and the first topic we do is the Russian Revolution and Stalins rise to power/early rule. Unfortunately we have never had a satisfying explanation of the idealogy. So again thank you for helping me understand I'm sure it will help in the long run.
No problem. I have always been interested in Russian history. I never studied it at school but I've read many books on it as it is a particular interest of mine. I highly recommend 'A Peoples Tradgedy' by O Fidges. It is pretty much the authorotative work on Russian history.
Well, first of all, there's a flaw in your theory. Stages 2 and 3 didn't happen in Russia...
Well let me just say it is not my theory, but Karl Marx's. Note that i did not say that this is what happened in Russia, merely what is supposed to happen according to Karl Marx.
Inetersting you mentioned that. Stage 2 did actually happen in Russia during Alexander III's reign with the focus on the economy and industrialisation. Stolypins reforms later under Nicholas II encourged it too.
But you are right in saying that stage 3 didnt happen. Bearing in mind what I mentioned in my original post is the theory of Marxism, NOT Marxism-Leninism which is what actually happened in Russia. May I also say that I am not trying to advocate or defend these theories, merely inform people of what they actually entail. There is a surprising amount of ignorance on the subject on these forums which I would like to address.
But as agent86 said stage 3, capitalism never took place instead:
Stage 3(In Russia)
Lenin's Changes to Marxist Theory (Marxism-Leninism)
1)Revolution would be accomplished by a small group of highly proffessional, dedicated revolutionaries. They were needed to develop the revolutionary consciousness of workers and focus on their actions. 2)Lenin belived that the revolution would occur during a period of conflict between capitalist powerds. He accepted Trotsky's 'weakest link' theory - revolution would start in an underdeveloped country (just like Russia) where the struggle and conflict between proletariat and bourgeoise was very great, then spread to more advanced industrial countries. 3)He did not think that the middle classes in Russia were strong enough to carry through a bourgeois-democratic revolution. He belived that the working class could develop a revolutionary government of its own in alliance with poor peasants who had a history of mass action in Russia - the bourgeois and socialist revolution could be rolled into one.
It essentially means that they skip out the capitalist part and move straight onto socialism.
Communist, your last sentence strikes me as, to put it in the only word I can adequately describe my consternation, foolish.
And it would be intresting to see China go from the semi-socialist state it is to full blown communism in its true state.
China tried full-blown communism. China set up its dictatorship of the masses, China tried to overstep the bounds of economic growth, China bungled up its internal affairs by trying to keep Communist. After the Cultural Revolution, people realized it didn't work. Hence the semi-socialist state you see today. Part of it is rooted in the Chinese psyche, a rather greedy, capitalist mindset. Part of it is rooted in power hunger. Part of it is rooted in external pressures of containment. The thing is, China survived where the USSR did not because it quickly adapted after Mao to a much watered-down form of Communism.
Read, for example, Mao's Little Red Book, and see how his vision of China in it compares to today. All of China used to revolve around that one little book, like a Bible. Its outlook is uncompromisingly communist. But it did fail. Deng Xiaoping changed it when he came around, and for that the Communist Party should be quite glad.
No no no! I mentioned earlier you must get rid of the jobs everyone hate doing the most first with improved technology! I said that China may be able to go into full blown communism in the next several decades! But in order for that to be successful, you must get rid of the spectre of totlitarinism that took over Chairman Mao. I personaly think communism was tried too early for it to really happen as Marx said it would.
Problem is, the jobs that everyone hates are often essential. There are still jobs that people hate that must be done. No amount of improved technology can change that.
As for full-blown communism, it ain't happening for a long time. The new generation is being exposed to a new wave of thought, totally different from the old-line communist thought they are taught in school. There are more freethinkers hidden there, and the Chinese government knows that. That is why there is censorship. Either way, with full openness or with censorship, true communism will not happen. With full openness, there will only be a larger denial of communism, a political thought that does not tolerate free thinking to operate. With censorship, it can only keep the way it is, not go forward into communism unless there is military force backing it.
I live in Hong Kong, but studied in 4 different Chinese universities. My way of saying my 2 cents gets me high exchange rates
Very interesting debate, but a few things (I like to add / for you to consider):
1) Extremes are pragmatically impossible. Where in the world is there full capitalism? HK prides itself in being the freest market, what, in my eyes, is rampant deregulation.
2) Communism beat the KMT because of it's communistic precepts. The fool that is Napoleon played his cards wrongly anyway.
3) The Giant Leap's failure can be attributed to short-sightedness rather than flaws with Maoism or dictatorship. Full blown automation is the fast lane. Who could have foreseen metal would not melt in backyard furnaces?? Besides those crummy fools that were sent to be re-educated.
4) Here's a good one: Why censorship? I don't think that's very communist. My reasons for this has to do with the master world plan and the Babylonian empire and the battle at Armageddon, so I'd rather hear your reasons
Anyway, I'm not really communist or socialist. The best form of government, IMO, is a synergy of an idea from antiquity, one religious in background, and one that has an extremely modern facade, but is older than the beardy man and his bald friend.
Now, if you can guess what I'm talking about, bravo hobbit, bravo! Now, I will return to my cave
Greens: I find censorship quite Communist. If a utopian society is to work, then every single person must whole-heartedly devote themselves to the ideology that binds them. Otherwise the whole thing is undermined.
I dont think censorship is absolutely vital to communism. Socialism, as one of the steps on the way there, is supposed to bring about an end t all opposition. Then and only then is no government nescessary and pure communism can take place. If you are saying it is needed in places like China and was needed in the USSR then you would be right, but like I said this isn't about that, but the belief itself not the administrations that have claimed to be communist.
If socialism is to be sustained, and if the proletarian dictatorship is to keep hold, they must have their ideology down 100% among the people. It takes just one dissenter to start a rebellion.
they must have their ideology down 100% among the people. It takes just one dissenter to start a rebellion.
All pro capitalists would be dealt with when socialism comes about according to the theory. If th majority of the poplation have nothing to gain from reverting to captialism, then why would they rebel.
And that is the situation China has found itself in, and the situation that the Soviet bloc found itself in before. According to the theory all pro-capitalists would have been dealt with, but it does not happen.
