ForumsWEPRJustifying Anarchism

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thelistman
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thelistman
1,416 posts
Shepherd

This is a rough draft. I wrote it in an hour or so, on a major lack of sleep. I tried to edit it from Word to the forums, so there might be a few errors in translation:

I was an outspoken Libertarian for a long time. *[When spelled with a CAPITAL L (Libertarian), that denotes someone who is part of the party. When spelled with a lower case L (libertarian), that denotes someone who is a libertarian, but not a member of the party]. I joined the party back in 2005. But, for the 2008 presidential election, the Libertarian Party elected Bob Barr to represent them as their presidential candidate. Now, let's be realistic for a second. The Libertarian Party had no chance of winning the election, no matter who was on their ballot. But instead of standing for their beliefs, the Libertarian Party elected Bob Barr to represent them. Barr went against everything the Libertarian Party stood for. Barr was a former Republican representative from Georgia. Barr claimed, as many new Libertarians say, "I did not leave the Republican Party, the Republican Party left me." But people like Bob Barr and other prominent Libertarians have simply followed the Republican mold. They continually support the Iraq War, wiretaps, the Cuban embargo, the drug war, bans on gay marriage, and dozens upon dozens of issues I could dive into.

The most important part is that the Libertarian Party completely went against their party values and choose someone who was just another Bush Republican. They though Barr would bring attention to the party, even if he was completely at odds with the ideology. Though in the end, the Libertarian Party received 125,000 more votes compared to the 2004 election, but taking into account the voter turnout, it is not much of an increase.

How could a party completely betray what they believe in? It disgusted me. Within hours of Barr's nomination, I wrote an e-mail to the Libertarian Party and demanded to be removed from the party list. I also told them never to send me anymore packages or letters. I was not alone. Many people were horrified at the turn of the party. How could an Iraq War supporter, Patriot Act supporter, gay basher, anti-drug proponent, and general Republican become the nominee for the Libertarian Party?

As soon as Barr was nominated, I began to look to other political parties to fit into. I believed in the free-market, minimal government, and free press above all. It took about two years before I found the "Boston Tea Party." I disgruntled member of the Libertarian Party created the BTP because he did not like the direction of the Libertarian Party. Unfortunately the BTP had no clear goals or policy issues. I quickly left them. I soon questioned the role of government, and its right to exist.

I saw the oppression that government created around the world. I could give thousands of examples. But specifically looking at the United States, this country has thrived off of war and oppressive government since its conception. For less that 20% of the US's existence has it not been in a state of war. Imagine that: for our 233 years of existence, we have only been at peace for 40 or so years. It is difficult to find any country that has not been in war for less than 20% of its existence. Not only that, but the US and other powerful nations profited off of war. Since 1945, the US has been overthrowing democratic governments and been replacing them with dictatorships in order to profit. Recently, the United States has replaced the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq. Of course, the candidates who most satisfied US interests were coincidentally elected.

With the war profiteering, the US government has been able to support brutal and murderous governments around the world (The Shah of Iran, Pinochet in Chile, Israel, Saddam Hussein, and dozens more). At the beginning of my college career, I was slightly conservative. Now, I have nothing but disgust and hatred for government. As I have done further research into what world governments have done, I cannot help but despise government.

This led me directly into Anarchism. There are many misconceptions about Anarchism. Most people see Anarchism as "No Gods, no masters" or "Everyone for themselves!" This is not anarchism. Many Anarchist communities have existed throughout our time. Many are religious societies while others have very competent police forces and law enforcement and have a well run society. They exist to this day (ex. Freetown Christiania in Denmark).

As I drove deeper into Anarchist thought, I realized that there were many schools of Anarchism. Anarcho-Communism, Anarcho-Capitalism, Feminism, Individualist Anarchism, Egoism, Objectivism, Left Libertarianism, Collectivist-Anarchism, Religious Anarchism, and many more. Some forms were compatible with each other. For the past year or so, I have settled on Individualist Anarchism. But, this system of Anarchism is a broad spectrum in itself. If one accepts the Left-Right political scale, it ranges from center left to far right. I guess my views change a lot. I could spend hundreds of pages going over each and every political view I hold. But I will not do that here, as there is too much to write, and my views constantly change.

Of course, being an Anarchist, I have to live with several contradictions. The first contradiction I always hear is being religious and an Anarchist. Again, the misconception of "No gods, no masters" is always brought to my attention. Though many Anarchists are atheists, that does not mean all Anarchists are. I personally consider myself a "believer in Christ." I despise organized religion which is why I reject the term "Christian" for myself. Organized religion is corrupt and exists to keep the elites in power. It brings forth common enemies to oppress the masses (a subject that I will get into later). But without getting into further explanation, Anarchists do not have to be atheist.

The main contradiction I have to live with is living in a society that has government. "Why don't you just become a hermit and live without government" people ask me when I declare my Anarchist views. Tom Morello, lead guitarist of Rage Against the Machine and Socialist, had to answer to why the band signed a deal with Sony, a Capitalist institution. He responded that when living in a Capitalist world, he had to get by with the system that was in place. He mentioned that Noam Chomsky, a prominent Socialist, sells his books for quite a profit, but he has to because he lives in a Capitalist world. In order to make change, he has to use the system in place. Now, I am no Socialist. I have never been too big a fan of left-wing economics, but I can understand where Morello was coming from.

I live in a world where government exists. Government rules my life and I have to accept that for now. I doubt that within my life time that the world will turn to Anarchism (or the version that I like the most). So, throughout my life, I have to deal with the fact that government exists and I will always have to rely on them. Government is set up to make people dependent on it. Whenever there are tough economic times, people fall back on government to help them. When there is a civil rights issue, all sides will lean on government to pick their side. Other times, government will come in to solve an issue the way that it sees fit. Often, the solution will benefit the government itself the most. Government, whether in a free or oppressed society, convinces the public that it must exist to protect the people from other oppressors.

These other oppressors are presumably, other governments. Government has always binded people together by creating a common enemy. Since the beginning of the first civilizations, one the main aspect that kept states together was a common enemy. The Greeks had the Persians, the Christians fought the Muslims, and the Americans fight the terrorists. Without an enemy, what need is there for the state? If there is no state, the elites in power will lose their power. In order to stay at the top, they need to create an enemy to scare the common person. The elites need to create violence to convince the people they are fighting for the state and common protection from foreign oppressors. The enemy does the same. The elites convince their citizens that in order to protect their families and loved ones, they must fight and die. But without an enemy, the state is useless. Without a state, the elites can no longer rule over the commoners. Thus, the elites of society must keep the state, a common enemy, and violence going in order to stay in power.

This has led me to believe that the state exists only to serve the interests of the elite. In turn, this means the state will do violence against its pre-determined enemy in order for society to feel protected from foreign oppressors, which justifies the role of the state in society. I see government as naturally evil and violent. The only way it can exist is for it to do violence against others to make its citizens feel protected and to continually justify its existence. Without violence and a common enemy, the state has no reason to exist. Thus the state must create new enemies constantly in order to serve the interests of those up top. Once those on the highest rung feel threatened, a new enemy is created to justify the existence of government.

In the end, I feel government is naturally violent and destructive. As long as government exists, the world will be full of violence and hatred. We will continually have random and subjective enemies to suit the interests of those who hold power. I know in my lifetime, government will never cease to exist. But if I can promote the ideas of peace and minimalist government in the life of each and every citizen in the world, that is all I can do. Maybe someday, far in the future, some of my thoughts will be recognized as logical, and a step towards peace and non-aggression can be made.

  • 19 Replies
Agent_86
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Agent_86
2,132 posts
Nomad

This has led me to believe that the state exists only to serve the interests of the elite. In turn, this means the state will do violence against its pre-determined enemy in order for society to feel protected from foreign oppressors, which justifies the role of the state in society. I see government as naturally evil and violent. The only way it can exist is for it to do violence against others to make its citizens feel protected and to continually justify its existence. Without violence and a common enemy, the state has no reason to exist. Thus the state must create new enemies constantly in order to serve the interests of those up top. Once those on the highest rung feel threatened, a new enemy is created to justify the existence of government.
Government isn't to serve the elite. You didn't know that the "Messiah" got elected?!
Aaroniscool
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Aaroniscool
254 posts
Nomad

Sorry, but I have to come to the defense of the Government.

The only thing I can say is that though the government can be bad and corrupt, the government always had a purpose: to uphold and enforce the law. The problem with Anarchy is that one would either have no one to answer to or everyone to answer to at once (aka, riot). The Government was also originally made to unite many people into one community/state/nation and was meant to keep people protected from other people. The government isn't supposed to be cruel, it's supposed to be just.

Does the Constitution have anything in it that would prove to be violent and destructive?

Graham
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Graham
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Nomad

ok i'm going to try to make a summary of how i interpreted those paragraphs

you don't like bob barr being elected because he wasn't libertarian and just using the name, you realize the fact you have to live in the world w/ gov no matter what
you claim govt creates enemies so they can keep profits rolling and continue the misconception of terror is everywhere

I agree that wars bring in more money, however i disagree the govt makes wars based on profit. I believe that they make wars because of threats of someone else that they have bad relations with coming into power/not following the rules of UN (Iran)

In worse case senario they use wars for a distraction like Bill Clinton's affairs..he shot a buncha missles into middle east and, if i remember correctly, made operation desert storm without a legitamit reason



the constitution has manny manny stuff that can be violent and destructive

one thing is freedom of speech, not everyone is happy to hear hate-speech
freedom of religion, foreigners could come over and segregate themselves from jews..

Zootsuit_riot
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Zootsuit_riot
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Nomad

Does the Constitution have anything in it that would prove to be violent and destructive?


The Constitution doesn't have to state any outside motives of politicians for it to be true.

I agree that wars bring in more money, however i disagree the govt makes wars based on profit.


Americans once held a huge majority of shares in a Chile-based copper company. When a left-wing president was elected and declared the company Chilean property, America sent in General Pinochet to overthrow the government in a coup d'tat. The U.S. got their copper back.
PsychoIncarnate
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PsychoIncarnate
1,037 posts
Nomad

I think the movie SLC punk is a good example of why Anarchy can't work.

Reptillian
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Reptillian
24 posts
Nomad

Justifying Atheism:

You have no proof. I say it is the truth. It is better. Atheism good.

No, seriously. It is a matter of opinion. Everything in that essay including everything else in this world boils down to sheer opinion.

Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

Justifying Atheism:

You have no proof. I say it is the truth. It is better. Atheism good.

No, seriously. It is a matter of opinion. Everything in that essay including everything else in this world boils down to sheer opinion.


Athiesm??
Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

I'll have to read it later thelistman.
As a communist I'm expecting to agree with you.

Justifying Atheism:

You have no proof. I say it is the truth. It is better. Atheism good.

No, seriously. It is a matter of opinion. Everything in that essay including everything else in this world boils down to sheer opinion.


Athiesm??

The Government was also originally made to unite many people into one community/state/nation and was meant to keep people protected from other people.


Thats quite false. The government had always been a way for the rich to exercise their power.

The government isn't supposed to be cruel, it's supposed to be just.


It should be...

I believe that they make wars because of threats of someone else that they have bad relations with coming into power/not following the rules of UN (Iran)


Threats and bad relations both have relations to money.
HornyCow
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HornyCow
12 posts
Nomad

Athiesm??


That be me third account. This is Ricador =)

Anywho, i was using that as an example of a very opinionated argument.
Flipski
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Flipski
623 posts
Nomad

Ya government can be corrupt, etc. We all know all of this stuff already.

Okay, lets say we remove all government, and just start fresh, all living on our own, on our won rules. The lets say some idiot starts traveling from house to house threatening families and taking their food. What do we do? We would band together to protect ourselves. Strength in numbers. And we would fight off the guy and his criminal friends. Then we would plan on whose in charge of watching our little village at night, and how we would organize stuff. More people start coming to us for protection, as they come in, we make rules to follow, eventually we get so big that we start having problems within our town, so we need police, and we need to vote on who is in charge of decisions, etc.

Government is inevitable. We need protection from each other, and the best way to do it is in numbers, and the best way to collaborate to progress technologically is in numbers. If all of us lived in our own seperate caves, and did our own thing, without creating an economy where companies and businesses could thrive, we would be stuck in the stone age.

Anarchy is another thing that sounded good when Bush made another mistake. But if you really look at it, Government is necessary and inevitable. And its working fairly well the way it is. Would you really want to take down government? I certainly wouldn't.

woody_7007
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woody_7007
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Peasant

Aside from your misgivings about the governemtn, is there anything about anarchy that is appealing in a practical sense? From an economic point of view all forms of anarchy make little sense. How would goods be produced? Who would produce them? How would technology progress? Is the sacrifice of all the current life comforts and securities worth ultimate personal freedom?

Communist
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Communist
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Nomad

Hmm Listman, you say you are a supporter of free enterprise yet you think Anarchy is freedome basically. How can you have a stateless society while there are privatly owned indusrtires that no long have to obey the laws and limits the state imposes on them for the good of the people? They would simply bribe members of the military to get them to do what ever they wanted with the people. The Bourgeois would start to run things the way they wanted it within several year. In that sense, it this anarchy and true Lberty with all freedoms really going to last with human nature the way it is these days?

thelistman
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thelistman
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Shepherd

@Woody - Anarchism is not a "let's overthrow all authority" system like most people think. Just because there is no government does not mean things can't get done.

@Communist - It is the state that creates unfair competition, horrible business practices, and massive corporations. Without government interference, private ownership would have to act fairly to ensure their survival. If there is no government, corporations will fall and no longer be able to oppress the people.

I would go into further detail, but I am dead tired.

woody_7007
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woody_7007
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Peasant

Anarchism is not a "let's overthrow all authority" system like most people think. Just because there is no government does not mean things can't get done.


I am aware of this, yet there are many instances I can think of where the government intervenes in the market to correcta faliure, for example public and private goods that would be non existent in anarchy.
Flipski
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Flipski
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Nomad

I believe the opposite is true. With a market based on anarchism, businesses would be way too powerful. The top companies would remain at the top and would continue to grow, with no stopping them. With such power, they would be in control. The reasoning I have behind this is because business laws and regulations created by the government, such as patents, copy rights, etc would not exist. The government protects small businesses and private inventors by allowing them 20 years to get started on a project without a larger company, that could manufacture the product in an instant, stealing your idea before you even start producing. There are also laws against monopolies etc. Without these laws, businesses would be much more powerful than they are now. I don't see how the opposite would be true.

Anarchism, like communism, are very idealistic views. They would be awesome, but the truth is that they wouldn't work in real life. You can't trust everyone in the world to kindly be polite and help eachother out, there will always be the few that try to take advantage of the situation for personal gain, and our current government does it's best to protect the rest from these people.

The for of government we have now is by no means perfect, but its pretty good at doing what it's intended for.

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