Being that I don't believe in a conventional god and most certainly not one that created everything and is a centralized entity I believe morality is inherent in human beings. However, I will not expose my reasons why until some other people throw their hats into the conversation. What do you think? Can morality exist in the absence of god?
Yeah, I wasn't very clear there. I don't think the question works unless we accept there is a god - otherwise, the atheist could just answer "Yes, I have morals and an absence of god, so blah!" With the acceptance of a god, Euthyphro's dilemma is a direct consequence of your question. Perhaps the question can still be posed in a godless vacuum, but I don't think I would find it that interesting, as an atheist.
I understand what you mean. I would hope that those who were atheists wouldn't be so one dimensional in their responses, possibly giving anecdotal evidence for the generation of their morality. Unfortunately that seems to not be the case thus far. Eh, sometimes I underestimate people, or rather, their interest in certain things.
I just ran over the replies in this thread.. nobody has done that yet.
I don't understand. Do you mean that no one has given evidence as to how their morality developed in the absence of a "god" type representative? Or that people haven't just said, "Yes, I developed morals without believing in god."?
I have to agree with Jean-Paul Sartre "God is absence. God is the solitude of man." All human beings have from some moral values from their birth, the society teaches what is moral and what is not. When you have a greater and stronger being it has to have also superior values. So we can say that morality is a gift from God and not in our nature, cause if we could already tell what's right and what's wrong where is the purpose of God's existence? Also my opinion is that when we learn what's moral at a young age we tend to respect more values which were given by somebody we don't know. Our family can tell us not to do something and many children would ignore the advice order, but when a stranger says don't do this cause it's wrong the majority of the children will stop doing it. Morality does exist without the existence of God, but it would be very different. I think that from our birth the nature and instincts tell as not to kill to protect our kind. Killing it's not accepted even in animals, when an animal fights an other of it's kind they don't want to kill the opponent (at least usually).
Or that people haven't just said, "Yes, I developed morals without believing in god."?
Mostly this.
I've chimed in on other morality threads but if you want my personal take on how it has come to pass without the presence of a god, here it is, albeit in a shorter form as I kind of feel like moving on to gaming in a short bit here:
As a species, we have evolved and developed as social creatures; similarly, you can find example of lots of other social creatures. If you take a look back to what it would have been like for small groups, tribes of humans - it's a very tiny community. Everyone knows everyone. The people who do not act in a manner that is considered acceptable by the tribe, are soon ostracized and life is made particularly difficult for them. This gives humans a reason to 'lay along' and not screw other people over, because in the end, it comes back to haunt them. Not in a sense of 'karma' or anything, but if you're an ass to people in a small group, everyone is going to hear about it.
You can even see examples of it in excommunication from the church - there's a time where the morality judged those who did not follow the teachings of the church, and they were blacklisted for it.
Our success as a species has much to do with our learned ability to cooperate with one another, at least on some levels - as not all 'tribes' or civilizations get along. Those that do however, tend to prosper.
Yeah that is the basic premise. Basically morality is inherent in humans with or without delusions of some all powerful being dictating it to us.
I think that's an opinion. It's also an opinion that's been around for a long time. That kind of gets into tabula rasa and Calvinism. I think the point is we can't know for sure if we are born with a sense of morality. You can't show pictures of violent acts or pictures of hugs to a baby and determine if it is inherently good or evil based on it's reaction. I think similar experiments would be just as inconclusive.
Mythology, not neccesarily religion has been around for most of history, if not all. These stories from all over the world have recurring themes, often about how to treat one another. They are like an education in how to behave in a society. Religion is the same way. People read the Bible and say it's a bunch of hooey because it says not to wear certain clothes, but they ignore the value of certain stories. There's The Good Samaritan, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. And Im not claiming that these completely original ideas. But they are still teachings on how to behave and treat your fellow man. These are universal themes in most religions and myths around the world. So in answer to the question, yes there is and could be morality without God, but because a lot of other religions and mythologies and stories teaching people the same things as you say God dictates.
So in answer to the question, yes there is and could be morality without God, but because a lot of other religions and mythologies and stories teaching people the same things as you say God dictates
What about humans before the invent of organized religion? It is probably a fair assumption that people looked up at the sky and wondered and I don't think anyone would argue against that assumption. But, early polytheistic religions were based on seasons and the sun and stars, and were devoid of gods mandating morality. It would seem that family groups waaay back when must have had some innate sense of morality in a basic manner, otherwise our species would have been unable to propagate due to killing one another and blah blah blah. I realize people surely did kill each other and there was rape and whatnot but, some people survived long enough to become creative enough to live in groups larger than families and so on and so forth. I agree it is an opinion. Although, there is science to back up our need as a species to be sociable. In order to be sociable we must not harm one another, steal blah blah blah so it just seems that the things that are already deemed by society to be wrong are intrinsic in our nature. Man wants to have, thus to be taken from seems wrong, of course unless you are giving something willingly but of course that is different.
What about humans before the invent of organized religion? It is probably a fair assumption that people looked up at the sky and wondered and I don't think anyone would argue against that assumption. But, early polytheistic religions were based on seasons and the sun and stars, and were devoid of gods mandating morality. It would seem that family groups waaay back when must have had some innate sense of morality in a basic manner, otherwise our species would have been unable to propagate due to killing one another and blah blah blah. I realize people surely did kill each other and there was **** and whatnot but, some people survived long enough to become creative enough to live in groups larger than families and so on and so forth. I agree it is an opinion. Although, there is science to back up our need as a species to be sociable. In order to be sociable we must not harm one another, steal blah blah blah so it just seems that the things that are already deemed by society to be wrong are intrinsic in our nature. Man wants to have, thus to be taken from seems wrong, of course unless you are giving something willingly but of course that is different.
You're missing my point. They got their values passed down orally, through stories. And what about people today, who kill and steal, but see it as perfectly normal because they live in a group that shares that same feeling and ethos? Evil is subjective. These people would feel no remorse because them and theirs have food in their bellies because they killed. There is no reason to, because they created their own ethos, and did not learn one for whatever reasons.
The situation in Africa is a good example of this. Relatively well armed brigands are rampant and don't see their actions as evil because they have not been taught to do otherwise is good. They aren't exiled because they do what they see as right and that is to rape and pillage. They are exiled or killed because they do not kill or steal because that interferes with the what their leaders order. Disobeying means they aren't acting in an acceptable way to the society of a warlord.
Despite what your Sunday school teacher might say, morality is a human factor, not a divine one. We have set up our own set of rules to carry on. Some have been "influenced" by a divine being, while most come naturally.
So, my answer is yes. It can very much exist without a god. God does not make us moral. Bill Cosby makes us moral.
You're missing my point. They got their values passed down orally, through stories. And what about people today, who kill and steal, but see it as perfectly normal because they live in a group that shares that same feeling and ethos? Evil is subjective. These people would feel no remorse because them and theirs have food in their bellies because they killed. There is no reason to, because they created their own ethos, and did not learn one for whatever reasons.
The situation in Africa is a good example of this. Relatively well armed brigands are rampant and don't see their actions as evil because they have not been taught to do otherwise is good. They aren't exiled because they do what they see as right and that is to **** and pillage. They are exiled or killed because they do not kill or steal because that interferes with the what their leaders order. Disobeying means they aren't acting in an acceptable way to the society of a warlord.
I understand. Nice point sir or madam. It makes me wonder about what makes sociopaths. I know that there is some genetic marker that makes one more or less likely to be one, and that it is usually nurture that sends one over the edge. I wonder if those who are conditioned to feel that way because of they're circumstances (and by feel that way I mean to think it is okay to kill or rape) would feel the same way if removed from that situation...
