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Bloodscum
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Bloodscum
115 posts
Nomad

Do you think Communism could benefit a country?
Personally, I am in favour of it, because I like the idea of an equal distribution of wealth and a proper welfare system for the people.

I also am not in favour of the Capitalist idea of the rich benefitting simply because they have more money, and the labourers working hard yet still being paid badly, or the unemployed who are deprived jobs because the capitalist entrepreneurs find it more profitable to use machines.

I'd appreciate your views on the subject

  • 173 Replies
Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

but at what costs...


Yes, I am not denying the high costs of it.

Well if all your production goes to outside the country then it will be big.
Key word: output


What do you mean? The Soviet Union did not do much foreign trading.

My brother at the start of a new school year, on sports class, he ran slower than he could walk on purpose. By the end of the year he ran significtly faster than on the start, but still slow. He got am outstanding on sports that year.


Cool story bro?
The Soviet Union surely did start as a purely agricultural economy. Farmers were still using wooden tools. Industrialization put the USSR into the 20th century and pulled over 120 million people out of the Middle Ages.

16.4% is a tremendous improvement. I have some other statistics on the success of industrialization if you want.
Also, the Soviet Union grew to be a feudal society to the 2nd highest economy by its end. So "but still slow" doesn't apply to this situation.
Bloodscum
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Bloodscum
115 posts
Nomad

16.4% is a tremendous improvement. I have some other statistics on the success of industrialization if you want.
Also, the Soviet Union grew to be a feudal society to the 2nd highest economy by its end. So "but still slow" doesn't apply to this situation.


I agree. Would Russia today be in such good condition if not for industrialisation under the communist regime? The country was stagnating under the corrupt Czar in the 1900's, and wasn't showing much signs of improvement (the puppet parliament, Duma, was a failure... worker strikes were fired upon etc)

Yet now with the rampant capitalism prevalent in Russia, there is a steadily growing support of fascist ideology. Indigenous Russians are denied jobs because workers from places like Uzbekistan and Tajikistan are much cheaper to hire. This naturally causes resentment amongst the unemployed Russians, who form gangs and beat up any foreigners or outsiders, believing them to be inferior and the cause of their suffering. Gang violence and ethnic tensions are steadily rising in major cities like Moscow because of this.
Klagshamn
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Klagshamn
18 posts
Nomad

Since the end of WW2 more people have been killed for being "different" in the name of communism than in the entire WW2! Communism is a great thought that would never work since it is based on a fallable factor.... HUMANS. I say go back to the inerrant and infallable origin and put another foundation in it! Meaning God and Christianity.

VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

"Communist States" are said to have killed 100,000,000 people.

________________________________________________________

Philippines (Marcos)...............220,000
Guatemala..................... ...........300,000
Nanking Massacre..................300, 000
Iraq (Selling poison gas).......400,000
Iraq (desert Storm)..................500,000
Philippine Invasion..................650, 000
Feudal Russia,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,1, 066,000
Afghanistan................... ........1,200,000
Iraq (WMD)......................... ...1,300,000
Khmer Rouge (US),,,,,,,,,,,,,,2,035,000
S. African Apartheid.............3,500,00 0
Nazi Holocaust..................... 6,000,000
US on Latin America...........6,000,000
Japanese Imperialism.......6,000,000
Pol Pot (CIA puppet)............7,100,000
Vietnam War.......................10,0 00,000
Korean War.........................10 ,000,000
British Occupied India.......10,000,000
Great Depression..............12,000 ,000
WW1........................... ..........16,500,000
WW2........................... ..........47,000,000
Native Americans...............95,000 ,000
African Slave Trade..........150,000,000

Capitalism: 386,571,000 Murders

Bloodscum
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Bloodscum
115 posts
Nomad

Indeed....

It's funny how they forget to mention all this, no?

monkeyman711
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monkeyman711
15 posts
Nomad

communism may look good on paper, but when its put into action it doesnt, i repeat doesnt, work. just look at what happened to the soviet union. incase you dont know, it didnt work for them.

Bloodscum
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Bloodscum
115 posts
Nomad

communism may look good on paper, but when its put into action it doesnt, i repeat doesnt, work. just look at what happened to the soviet union. incase you dont know, it didnt work for them.


It did actually. Before Communism, the country was dying of stagnation. The Czar was doing nothing at all. Russia was a century behind the rest of Europe. 20 years after Communism arrived in Russia, it had industrialized so much that it was the only country Nazi Germany feared. I'd call that progress, wouldn't you?
VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

communism may look good on paper, but when its put into action it doesnt, i repeat doesnt, work. just look at what happened to the soviet union. incase you dont know, it didnt work for them.


I see you have finished 6th grade social studies class. What you have said can be said by anyone and for anything, and to be frank that statement doesn't even have support other than "Look at the Soviet Union".
Ninjacube
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Ninjacube
584 posts
Nomad

I am a die-hard capitalist but still don't like it when people say stuff like this:

communism may look good on paper, but when its put into action it doesnt, i repeat doesnt, work. just look at what happened to the soviet union. incase you dont know, it didnt work for them.

with nothing to back it up.
I'm a bit too lazy to type up a full rant about communism, but I'll just point out one major flaw and if this debate heats up maybe i'll post more.
It provides little or no incentive to produce, while the incentive to consume is constant in all states. Less incentive to produce = less production. When production < consumption, and the country doesn't engage in trading for profit (like a communist country), then you've got reduced quality of life and possibly starvation.
Have at it.
Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

Since the end of WW2 more people have been killed for being "different" in the name of communism than in the entire WW2!


What? I suggest you actually look up history. That made no sense.

It provides little or no incentive to produce, while the incentive to consume is constant in all states. Less incentive to produce = less production. When production < consumption, and the country doesn't engage in trading for profit (like a communist country), then you've got reduced quality of life and possibly starvation.


So if the bourgeoisie means of production is eliminated, all people will instantly go into utter laziness?

The incentive to work would be the same, to produce goods and make a living. Except in a communist society, the fruits of your labor would be fully yours, and thus, it would actually be a higher incentive to work as exploitation is eliminated.

The idea that capitalism creates innovation and incentive to work only applies to the slight, perhaps 1%, of the production process. The rest of the labor has nothing to do with innovation or incentive, it is simply work on the production level, workers working in a factory, workers doing their job in an office, etc.

And I find this a good sugarcoating.
In other words, capitalism allows a few people to own the whole of the means of productions. And thus, we have the fact that 1% of the population owns 40% of the wealth!

And what innovation does capitalism create? What is the idea that all you need is innovation to become wealthy? As if there is a system that rewards innovations?
People get rich because they were creative enough to think that people need food to survive? Haha, their ownership of the means of production is purely because of the reason that the material conditions that existed lead to them being the class of the bourgeoisie. This may be by the means of inheritance, luck, etc.
Flipski
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Flipski
623 posts
Nomad

Good arguments in this forum. I have some things to say. My Dad told me about an article he read about China, whose growth is mostly artificial, because of investments that weren't backed with anything. And how their success so far has been short term and will not last and how investors are reacting...blah blah blah, anyways, if I find the article, I'll post it.


Personally I would rather have the opportunity to work my ass off and become rich, versus working as hard as I can and still end up getting the same thing as everyone else. In that case, I wouldn't try at all. why waste my time?

So what if others are extremely rich? Are you jealous? You have the opportunity to do the same. If you are lazy, don't want to do anything, and want to be handed the same furnace as everyone else has on the block, then whatever, that's your choice. I personally would like to be rewarded for my hard work.

goumas13
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goumas13
4,752 posts
Grand Duke

As Frank Zappa said: "Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff."

Drace
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Drace
3,880 posts
Nomad

Personally I would rather have the opportunity to work my *** off and become rich, versus working as hard as I can and still end up getting the same thing as everyone else. In that case, I wouldn't try at all. why waste my time?


Communism vs cannot be simplified merely to "Capitalism is where you work and get paid on how hard you work, and in communism you get paid same as everyone else".
Who said communism wouldn't reward hard work?

So what if others are extremely rich? Are you jealous? You have the opportunity to do the same. If you are lazy, don't want to do anything, and want to be handed the same furnace as everyone else has on the block, then whatever, that's your choice. I personally would like to be rewarded for my hard work.


Class struggle has much problems with it. You do not see a problem with a few individuals owning almost all of society?

Capitalism does not pay wages according to the quality of work. It allows those who own the means of production, which is in the hands of the few wealthy, to exploit all of labor.

As Marx says "Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by the means of such appropriation."
Xzeno
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Xzeno
2,301 posts
Nomad

Capitalism: 386,571,000 Murders
I would like to hear an explanation as to why you blame those deaths on capitalism. Also, your holocaust number is off. Six million Jews were killed. The grand total was more than that.
VoteSocialist
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VoteSocialist
950 posts
Nomad

That's why I added World War II.

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