In Switzerland everybody the right to make an initiative. If you collect so and so many signings the populace can vote if they want to accept your initiative or not.
Propably all of you heard that it's now forbidden to built minarets in Switzerland because of such an initiative. It was accepted with about 57.5% of the votes.
Many experts say that the populance wanted to show a signal against the Islamization. They see the minarets as a symbol of power. They are propably also worried because the government isn't sure how it should go on with the immigrations. Please don't think that Switzerland is a racist country, otherwise we wouldn't have 20-25% foreigners. Another reason why the people voted "yes" might be that the prisons are filled with 70% foreigners.
I wonder now what do you think about that (especially if you are Muslim). Is it really that bad that minarets mustn't be built? Because mosques still can be built and Muslims still may live out their religion.
BTW polls showed that this "minaret interdiction" would propably also be accepted in Germany and Austria if they had a direct democracy. And: I voted against this initiative
Why the hell is it still permissable in the West to attack Islam?
I think many people are scared of the Islam. If you see nations like Iran etc. it can really scare you. Women are supressed, have to wear burkas... Homosexuality is punished with the dead penalty... Another problem is that in many Islamic countries it is forbidden to built churches, not only the towers... Further influences are surely the terrorists and the high crime rate of the foreigners in Switzerland. Don't think that I'm racist or islamophobe... I just try to tell why many people voted yes But I think it becomes a bigger problem. Maybe you heard that in the Netherlands a party who is totally against the Islam got 20% of the votes (in local elections).
So apparently denying freedom for others is true democracy.
First I also thought so and that's why I voted "no". But actually it seems like the minarets aren't really necessary. Even the protests of Saudi Arabia etc. weren't really big. And now everybody has calmed down. Except Lybia, who wants the Djihad (Holy War) against Switzerland, but that's because of other reasons...
Just because you don't agree with the outcome doesn't mean the system is undemocratic.
Denying the freedom of others based on opinion undermines everything the term democracy stands for.
And the majority said to ban Minarets.
No. Not really. It was sponsored by a minority party known for xenophobia and extremism. From a US perspective, the equivalent of voiceferous neocons. More importantly however, the turnout for this election was extremely low. People basically thought,'there's no need for me to rutn out, since there's no way this is going to get passed'. According to opinion polls conducted at the time, the majority of Swiss actually would have voted against the motion, had they been bothered to do so.
Some freedoms must be denied. Human sacrifice is not allowed.
What the hell are you talking about? This isn't some sort of extreme practice, this is an attempt to suppress
The Swiss are tired of the Islamification of Europe and felt it was time to defend their secular values.
Europe contains Muslims just as it contains Christians, Jews and Atheists. Attacking one group because you don't like them is nothing short of bigotry. Also, did you miss the part when I said that there are only 4 minarets in the entire country? Doesn't really seem like Islamafication to me.
As an interesting comparison, there are 600 Christian churches in Tehran.
Muslims have been immigrating to Europe faster than ever and some are trying to push their lifestyle onto Europeans.
One last thing. Living in Britain, with the proportionately highest Muslim population, I find this statement laughable. You need to stop reading the Daily Mail. It's not healthy.
''The vote was in sharp contrast to opinion polls, which predicted that between 53 per cent and 54 per cent would reject the proposal. ''
And it's one of the strongest party in Switzerland (unfortunately).
It is strong, but it is certainly not a majority party, in the same way that the BNP here in the UK get a lot of media attention, but don't really have much political power.
I think many people are scared of the Islam. If you see nations like Iran etc. it can really scare you.
So we should punish the Swiss Muslims by prohibiting their freedom of religion? I know this may sound crazy to some people, but the authorities in Iran do not represent the opinions of the Swiss Muslims, who predominantly come from Turkey and the Balkans.
Another problem is that in many Islamic countries it is forbidden to built churches, not only the towers...
Oh, and also I forgot to address this. Why do you think your personal opinion means a thing? Note that we are talking about a democracy actively acting in an undemocratic manner, which is the focus of the issue. If you start banning and censoring groups, simply because the majority do not like them, then that 'democratic' title is nothing more than hot air.
The vote was in sharp contrast to opinion polls, which predicted that between 53 per cent and 54 per cent would reject the proposal. ''
Yes, the polls were like this... But people voted different, that's how it is and we can't change it.
It is strong, but it is certainly not a majority party, in the same way that the BNP here in the UK get a lot of media attention, but don't really have much political power.
The good thin ghere is, that no party has much more political power than other parties because we have the principe of the concordance. We don't have 1 president but 7 federal council.
So we should punish the Swiss Muslims by prohibiting their freedom of religion?
It's not prohibited. They still can live out their religion. They still can build mosques. They still can pray etc.
Funny you should use Iran as an example, when I've already stated that that religious minorities can practice their religions freely and are not oppressed at all.
In Saudi Arabia for example it's forbidden to build churches. And I read that in Turkey Christians get "hunted" (sorry, I don't know the correct English word). Not by the government but by many people.
Yes, the polls were like this... But people voted different, that's how it is and we can't change it.
Yes, but the important thing to note is that even if we assume it is just to prohibit their freedom to practice their religion because of vox populi, the referendum still didn't even account for the majority of the population.
It's not prohibited. They still can live out their religion. They still can build mosques. They still can pray etc.
You don't need a bed or a computer, or an income, so let's take that away too. Let's also take away free speech and freedom of movement, you don't need that either.
Since when has need been a factor for determining freedoms in a democracy?
And for future reference, the minaret has the function of both calling Muslims to prayer (something which none do in Switzerland anyway) and where prayers are directed, since they all face towards Mecca. It seems like a pretty important aspect of religion to me. If you go to a church and weren't able to pray properly, you'd be up in arms about it.
In Saudi Arabia for example it's forbidden to build churches. And I read that in Turkey Christians get "hunted" (sorry, I don't know the correct English word). Not by the government but by many people.
Personally I think a big part of it is down to the media. For example, most of the people who hate Muslims are Americans, who actually have very little contact with them. In Europe, we have a little bit more of an excuse, due to riots in France or cartoons in Denmark, but generally such acts of extremism are condemned by the majority of the Muslim world. Peaceful condemnation doesn't make for a good headline though.
Also, can I add that the Middle East has been historically and remains one of the most tolerant regions on the planet, with the odd exception. I'd also love to see some links regarding these Christian hunts in Turkey, as I have family who have lived there for generations without any trouble.
I'd also love to see some links regarding these Christian hunts in Turkey
It's German but here are some facts (from the text): -Egemen Bagis (the Turkish Europe minister) said that the rich Turks shall take away their money from Swiss banks and bring it into the Turkey... -He called Switzerland racist,fascistic and islamophobe. -Churches get destroyed and abbeys expropriated (said Ueli Haldimann, member of the Christian Solidarity International). -Christs are insulted in the streets, sometimes even murdered. The murderers most time aren't found. -Turkish Christ can't live out their religion openly. Especially Arameans and Armenians have this problem. (said Haldimann) -100 years ago 20% of the Turkish people were Christian, now only 0.2%.
You don't need a bed or a computer, or an income, so let's take that away too. Let's also take away free speech and freedom of movement, you don't need that either.
That's ridiculous... You don't harm anybody with the prohibition of minarets. And as I said before, Muslims still can pray in the mosques... There are actually many mosques without minarets in the world, so you can't say that minarets are necessary.
-Egemen Bagis (the Turkish Europe minister) said that the rich Turks shall take away their money from Swiss banks and bring it into the Turkey...
-He called Switzerland racist,fascistic and islamophobe.
So now one man represents an entire religion? Good thing I'm an atheist then.
-Churches get destroyed and abbeys expropriated (said Ueli Haldimann, member of the Christian Solidarity International).
Biased source much? Any actual evidence other than the word of a Christian with a vested interest?
-Christs are insulted in the streets, sometimes even murdered. The murderers most time aren't found.
Without any evidence, I'm not inclined to believe anything you say.
-Turkish Christ can't live out their religion openly. Especially Arameans and Armenians have this problem. (said Haldimann)
What the hell are you talking about? The head of the Greek Orthodox church resides in Istanbul, with the largest Greek Orthodox church in the world, the name but one denomination.
The Armenian thing is a matter of race and genocide, not religion.
-100 years ago 20% of the Turkish people were Christian, now only 0.2%.
100 years ago Britain was 99% white. Now it is 85% white. I guess all those non whites must have driven out the whites. Oh wait, drawing blind conclusions from percentages has no founding in common logic.
And as I said before, minarets are a fundamental part of the praying process...
So it isn't possible to pray without minarets?
That's because they are prayer houses, not mosques. You can't have a mosque without a minaret.
Ok, then you can pray in a prayer house instead of in a mosque, what's the difference? And if you can't then you can go praying somewhere else (Sorry, if that sounds racist, it shouldn't). But nobody forces you to live in Switzerland. BTW most Muslims in Switzerland don't go to the mosque, so for them it doesn't really matter...
Without any evidence, I'm not inclined to believe anything you say.
Then click the link... Oh, and in Turkey it is forbidden to build new churches...
100 years ago Britain was 99% white. Now it is 85% white. I guess all those non whites must have driven out the whites. Oh wait, drawing blind conclusions from percentages has no founding in common logic
Dude, nearly all Christians were banished, expropriated or murdered... Nearly 100%... BTW 2006: Catholic priest was shot down after the argue about the danish Mohammed caricature. 2007: Youths murdered 3 missionaries. They tied them and slashed their throats. An abbey in Mor Gabriel shall be exproprated...
Ok, then you can pray in a prayer house instead of in a mosque, what's the difference?
We have this thing called freedom of religion, which includes a right to a place of worship. For anyone. It is downright unconstitutional for minarets to come down in the first place, because if they are, then so should churches. Otherwise it wouldn't be very democratic. (Note not operating on the Swiss constitution since I know little of its content, but pointing out you can't call this motion democratic, when it patently isn't).
But nobody forces you to live in Switzerland.
Nobody chooses where they are born, and that includes Swiss Muslims. Not all Swiss Muslims are 1st generation you know.
And if you can't then you can go praying somewhere else (Sorry, if that sounds racist, it shouldn't)
Also, may I ask why the architecture of a particular building bothers you to the point that you would seek to ban it, regardless of the implications it has for the state of your democracy?
Then click the link... Oh, and in Turkey it is forbidden to build new churches...
Funny that on an English site I don't speak German. Turkey is still secular and has a massive amount of churches left over from the days of the Ottoman empire.
Dude, nearly all Christians were banished, expropriated or murdered... Nearly 100%..
Your point being. Nearly all Jews were killed in Germany during WW2. Many now consider it a friendlier place to live than countries like France. You can't judge a people for what their ancestors did 100 years ago.
BTW 2006: Catholic priest was shot down after the argue about the danish Mohammed caricature. 2007: Youths murdered 3 missionaries. They tied them and slashed their throats. An abbey in Mor Gabriel shall be exproprated...
3 isolated events doesn't show the relative intolerance of a nation. The fact is Turkey has among the highest knife crime rates in the entire world. I guess no one cares when it's Turks murdering Turks though. Unless you can prove those murders were religiously motivated I don't have any reason to believe this shows intolerance on the part of the Turks. P.S. The fact the victims were Christian is not proof.
Also, may I ask why the architecture of a particular building bothers you to the point that you would seek to ban it, regardless of the implications it has for the state of your democracy?
It doesn't bother me, like I said, I voted "no". That means I don't have anything against minarets.
It is downright unconstitutional for minarets to come down in the first place, because if they are, then so should churches.
Not the churches but their towers should be banned. And I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Nobody chooses where they are born, and that includes Swiss Muslims. Not all Swiss Muslims are 1st generation you know.
Yeah, that's right... But most of them propably won't go to the mosque. And I still don't understand why minarets are so important. Oh and if they were allowed, muezzins shouting around wouldn't be allowed anyways I think.
