ForumsWEPRNew Nuclear Arms Policy

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Sargantfrosty
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Sargantfrosty
145 posts
Nomad

Barack Obama recently went against the Generals' advice, and changed the US nuclear weapons policy... for the better in my opinion
It basically states that the United States will NOT use nuclear weapons to retaliate against non nuclear attacks including biological or chemical warfare and cyber attacks. Also, the United States new policy means that we will never be allowed to use nuclear weapons on a country that does not have them.

This new policy has been implemented in the hopes of giving other countries such as China and Russia some incentive for them too to devote themselves to a world without nuclear arms.

Of course there has been some opposition from the Right, but they seem to forget that Ronald Regan... their JESUS was also a strong advocate for a world without Nuclear weapons and would have supported this policy. Just sayin', also recognize that there has been support from the right too.
So who opposed it? Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin obviously, and I wouldn't be surprised if Fox News sides with them.

Idk, what do you all think? Will Fox News side with Palin and Bachman? Who do you think is right? And do you think this will be enough incentive to see SOME improvement with the reduction of nuclear arms from other countries?

Not exactly the best OP I know, but let's build off of it lol

  • 28 Replies
LiL_GaNgSta_BlAzE
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LiL_GaNgSta_BlAzE
2,269 posts
Jester

Great, another step taken to enslave the populace and for the New World Order to rise.

:P

Seriously though, when the time comes, I doubt anyone will remember this policy, for, all fingers will be on the button if attacked by a 'threat' with substantial damage to country. [U.S.]

woody_7007
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woody_7007
2,662 posts
Peasant

WHY would we nuke North Korea, to make up for Vietnam? They are basically the same thing if you think about it...


For gods sake, people need to stop homogenising entire ethnic groups for the sake of ease. It's just not how the world works.

Personally im against the policy. The entire point of nuclear arms is deterrent. Without them, we could very easily revert to massive and infinitely more destructive conventional wars which plagued the 20th century. A world without nukes is simply a utopian publicity stunt from a president who wants to be seen to be doing something. Dont get me wrong, im a fan of obama in general, but this is just weak.
Sargantfrosty
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Sargantfrosty
145 posts
Nomad

Personally im against the policy. The entire point of nuclear arms is deterrent. Without them, we could very easily revert to massive and infinitely more destructive conventional wars which plagued the 20th century. A world without nukes is simply a utopian publicity stunt from a president who wants to be seen to be doing something. Dont get me wrong, im a fan of obama in general, but this is just weak.


So you're telling me that a world where no country had access to nuclear arms, is a bad world and will somehow create more violence?
The only thing "weak" here is your argument that weapons of mass destruction is nothing but a deterrent. When/if we fight a war with Iran, it will be because of Nuclear Weapons dispute, not because we had nuclear weapons as a deterrent to prevent violence.
Our Nuclear Weapons obviously didn't stop the Radical Islamists from attacking us at 9/11, and the only use countries have for them now is to establish themselves as a big military force in the world. The more countries that get them, the more that will want them, and the more we will want countries not to have them.
If you ask me, the better deterrent to violence would be the elimination of nuclear weapons, not more of them.

But the question is, WHY would we nuke North Korea, to make up for Vietnam? They are basically the same thing if you think about it...


They aren't exactly the same thing considering that North Korea has Nuclear weapons and Vietnam didn't lol.
woody_7007
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woody_7007
2,662 posts
Peasant

So you're telling me that a world where no country had access to nuclear arms, is a bad world and will somehow create more violence?


Yes. Nuclear proliferation is probably the sole reason the US/Russian conflict never went hot. If it did, conventional war on that scale would have wiped most of Europe and Asia off the map. Since MAD was in place there was no conflict at all.

The only thing "weak" here is your argument that weapons of mass destruction is nothing but a deterrent.


That is exactly what im arguing. Youre agreeing with me.

When/if we fight a war with Iran, it will be because of Nuclear Weapons dispute, not because we had nuclear weapons as a deterrent to prevent violence.


The reasons for war in iran are much more to do with western hypocrisy and decades of imperialist meddling than with the recent development of nukes. Either way the ayatollahs are more concerned with staying in power than committing suicide by actually following up any posturing.

If you ask me, the better deterrent to violence would be the elimination of nuclear weapons, not more of them.


If you ask me, that is a hopelessley optimistic, almost utopian world view. Do you really think its conceivable that every single nuclear country will agree to simultaneously disarm? Just look at the LON and all their attempts to disarm in the 1930s. No one wants to be the first guy to get rid of their weapons and leave themselves vulnerable.
Sargantfrosty
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Sargantfrosty
145 posts
Nomad

Yes. Nuclear proliferation is probably the sole reason the US/Russian conflict never went hot. If it did, conventional war on that scale would have wiped most of Europe and Asia off the map. Since MAD was in place there was no conflict at all.


Yes you are correct in that statement, however this is not the Cold War anymore. If we as a country made strides to disarm our nuclear arsenal, it would encourage others as well. Now I am not saying we should get rid of them altogether, as we may need them if attacked by a country with Nuclear Arms.

That is exactly what im arguing. Youre agreeing with me.


What? Lol. I said that your argument is weak, I didn't say that weapons of mass destruction is nothing but a deterrent.

The reasons for war in iran are much more to do with western hypocrisy and decades of imperialist meddling than with the recent development of nukes. Either way the ayatollahs are more concerned with staying in power than committing suicide by actually following up any posturing.


I agree with you partially, but I don't think we would declare war on Iran unless they started threatening us with Nuclear weapons.

If you ask me, that is a hopelessley optimistic, almost utopian world view. Do you really think its conceivable that every single nuclear country will agree to simultaneously disarm? Just look at the LON and all their attempts to disarm in the 1930s. No one wants to be the first guy to get rid of their weapons and leave themselves vulnerable.


When did I say that I think every single nuclear armed country would someday disarm all of their nuclear weapons at the same time?
However the United States has recently made some great strides with Russia to decrease our Nuclear weapon arsenal, and I do believe that elimination of Nuclear arms is possible if, and only if leading countries such as China, the USA and Russia start the strides towards a world without nuclear weapons. Eventually others would follow suit.
How long before that happens though? Most likely many many generations, and we would be lucky if we didn't destroy ourselves before hand.

Just a thought.
wajor59
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wajor59
909 posts
Nomad

U.S. is shutting down 1/3 of total nuclear weapons. We are promising to not use nuclear weapons against those without them and against those that have no probable cause for becoming a threat. North Korea is the same reason here. We have no refutable proof that they are a threat to us, so under this doctrine, we are leaving them alone, "nuclear-ly".


Thanks Frank, I can always count you to give factual data.

Seriously though, when the time comes, I doubt anyone will remember this policy, for, all fingers will be on the button if attacked by a 'threat' with substantial damage to country. [U.S.]



Please, as long as The USA still uses the constitution, as it was written, and congress behaves itself and leaves doors open to all congress, letting every representative inside before locking the doors! As long as congress doesn't allow the president to grow his branch of government so that it's bigger than the other two branches and our allies continue to be our allies and as long as the military stays physically and financially strong, this planet will continue to survive.

For gods sake, people need to stop homogenising entire ethnic groups for the sake of ease. It's just not how the world works.


Thanks, Woody, you're preaching to the choir!

Personally im against the policy. The entire point of nuclear arms is deterrent. Without them, we could very easily revert to massive and infinitely more destructive conventional wars which plagued the 20th century. A world without nukes is simply a utopian publicity stunt from a president who wants to be seen to be doing something. Don't get me wrong, im a fan of Obama in general, but this is just weak.


I'm not a fan of Obama but because of what he said in his Inaugural Speech, saying how he was going to "fundamentally change America", made me become a better listener.
I actually started rereading the Constitution, The Federalist and Anti Federalist Papers, books on Lincoln, Henry Clay, the American Civil War, States' Rights, etc.

Now this nuclear weapon reduction is a good thing because it's probably just a fancy, political way to upgrade our cache and dump the oldest weapons that may be leaking?



So you're telling me that a world where no country had access to nuclear arms, is a bad world and will somehow create more violence?
The only thing "weak" here is your argument that weapons of mass destruction is nothing but a deterrent. When/if we fight a war with Iran, it will be because of Nuclear Weapons dispute, not because we had nuclear weapons as a deterrent to prevent violence.
Our Nuclear Weapons obviously didn't stop the Radical Islamists from attacking us at 9/11, and the only use countries have for them now is to establish themselves as a big military force in the world. The more countries that get them, the more that will want them, and the more we will want countries not to have them.
If you ask me, the better deterrent to violence would be the elimination of nuclear weapons, not more of them.



Bush waited forever for the UN to get off the (seats of their pants), before declaring war with Saddam Hussein. Who, if I may remind everyone was talking loudly and threatening the US with WMD's. Two years later, Bush finally got the green light after the UN Peacekeeper's who first started looking for the weapons got kicked out by Husein and his goons.

In fact, since the UN building is close to being condemned I wish they would pack up and leave! What the **** good are they? Once upon a very long, cold war ago, it was needed. I say good bye, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The reasons for war in iran are much more to do with western hypocrisy and decades of imperialist meddling than with the recent development of nukes. Either way the ayatollahs are more concerned with staying in power than committing suicide by actually following up any posturing.


Are we going all the way back to the Shah of Iran who was ousted during the President Jimmy Carter days? We really should because that's when terrorists started popping up every where, those good old 1970's. Let's see, there was Idi Amin, the cannibal that held the Israeli flight in Uganda For 3 days? Wow, I was a kid but this was a tense moment in history. Then you had Muammar al-Gaddafi in Libya, acting cool for the camera but his government was repeatedly linked with terrorist activity, the the '70-'80's. Look at him now!

The point I'm trying to make is, and I'll try to debate your statement too: Woody's saying that the Ayatollah's would rather live than become a crater. I say the Ayatollah currently in Iran is praised and adored only for the camera any more and I think even that has stopped. Last summer there was about a half a million people rioting and trying to tell the world how corrupt the Iranian government was. Terrorist's love it when America is so wrapped up in it's own business, the economy was tanking last summer, soldiers were losing there homes due to corrupt mortgage lenders,(Acorn). What a mess! Mean wile the Ayatollah makes &quotuppets" out of the government leaders, causing more grief and despair in Iran so that Iranian's are naturally disgusted when they feel their votes have no value. I'll never forget Mr. Ahmadinejad's Columbian University Visit, Sept '07. I wasn't there in person but I was in Spirit and those kids made all American's proud.


What? Lol. I said that your argument is weak, I didn't say that weapons of mass destruction is nothing but a deterrent.


The second sentence, top of page 3, ..."The only thing "weak" here is your argument that weapons of mass destruction (WMD's) is nothing but a deterrent."


When did I say that I think every single nuclear armed country would someday disarm all of their nuclear weapons at the same time?
However the United States has recently made some great strides with Russia to decrease our Nuclear weapon arsenal, and I do believe that elimination of Nuclear arms is possible if, and only if leading countries such as China, the USA and Russia start the strides towards a world without nuclear weapons. Eventually others would follow suit.


Well, I'm not sure but you did do it again. Not to sound sarcastic but reread the last paragraph starting with..."and I do believe that elimination of nuclear arms is possible if, and only if leading countries such as China, USA and Russia start the strides towards a world without nuclear weapons.

I know you mean in the future.
thelistman
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thelistman
1,416 posts
Shepherd

This new law reduces the nuclear stockpiles to 1,550 warheads. So instead of being able to destroy the world 8 times over, we can destroy it 5 times over. This treaty does nothing to eliminate the threat of nuclear warheads.

This was purely an economic decision. It costs money to store nukes (storage and security). Nukes also degrade over time, so they have to be decommissioned after a while. The US and Russia are just going to dismantle nukes that were going to be disposed of anyways. This treaty was just a show. It makes Obama and Medvedev look like peace loving men. Unfortunately, 98% of people are going to buy into it.

woody_7007
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woody_7007
2,662 posts
Peasant

Yes you are correct in that statement, however this is not the Cold War anymore.


Your point? Just because there is no cold war doesnt diminish the deterrent of a nuclear arsenal.

Now I am not saying we should get rid of them altogether,


In that case, I agree with you.

but I don't think we would declare war on Iran unless they started threatening us with Nuclear weapons.


Even if they had nukes, they wouldnt be able to reach the US. Of course they could threaten US bases in the region, or try and form the caliphate theyve been talking about for so long, but thats a middle eastern isue for middle eastern countries to deal with.

When did I say that I think every single nuclear armed country would someday disarm all of their nuclear weapons at the same time?


You said the elimination of nuclear arms is preferable to having lots of them. I was pointing out that whilst this is true, it has little grounding in reality.

Thanks, Woody, you're preaching to the choir!


Always nice to have a responsive congregation.

Are we going all the way back to the Shah of Iran who was ousted during the President Jimmy Carter days?


Earlier. Getting rid of Mossadeq, the first liberal minded, and democraticaly elected ruler in the middle east in recent history because he was introverted and didnt want to give oil contracts to the british. The british complained to the americans about it, called him a communist, and the americans swiftly instigated a coup. The subsequent shahs imposed were inept dictators and are pretty much the main reason iran is so screwed up. Thats why its so hypocritical for us to atack iran as being undemocratic and fundamentalist as we pretty much created all the conditions possible for such extremists to take power.

This was purely an economic decision.


This is probably the main reason id support disarmament, but not to a point where there are no nukes at all. I dont mean to sound like a mad lefty, but when i think about all the money that goes into these things, i cant help but think ''why not give the $ to people who really need it?''
RenegadePlayer
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RenegadePlayer
684 posts
Nomad

nuclear missle shouldnt be allowed. the should be a war crime. and the part where we cant nuke non nukes, only ones that have nuclear warheads... mmm well that makes sense because if we want to have war it is ganna be with someone that can nuke us...! right?

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