ForumsGamesYour opinion on a good flash game.

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ArcRifle6
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ArcRifle6
10 posts
Nomad

In times like this I feel that people have been mindlessly brainwashed to eat the bird shat pie that is put in front of them, and then they can never tell the difference between that bird shat and a real pie. My first point of this is Tower Defense games, which yes I am a notorious hater of. Only Cursed Gems and Bloons Tower Defense seem to have it right, you want to make your tower defense simple, fast, and fun. If you draw it out with slow moving enemies and huge Diablo type upgrade menus, you might as well cut your balls off and sell them to a hobo, if he'll buy them. Looking at Bloons, you remove the element of "this tower kills this enemy" (except for a few VERY minor cases) and instead you just get "all of these towers will kill ALL of the enemy and you can add in a few to help you". And with Cursed Gems, you find very simple upgrade systems that are still very effective. I don't want to spend two-thirds of my game-play deciding which upgrades I want, I want to play the game, isn't that why the game was made? So it could be played? Apparently not now a days, especially with another element ported from platform games to flash games, MICRO-MANAGEMENT. I have played Mass Effect, and yes I too had some complaints about the menu system, but micro-management works in a large game like that. When you add micro-management to a flash game, it is just like putting whipped cream on your pie only to find out that the cream was replaced with bird shat. Plus, reviewers have lost their actual credibility as reviewers. If you dismiss a game just because it looks bad then go put hang yourself, please. Many good concept games get left to die because everyone has to be knit-picky. Yes admittedly bad graphics can be a major let down for a game, but sometimes the complaint is made when the game wasn't intended to have good graphics. We as reviewers need to stop and say "Hey, is this concept good? Is fun? Is it playable? Is it new?" instead of the common tendency to rule it out on just a few elements.

  • 24 Replies
PsychoIncarnate
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PsychoIncarnate
1,037 posts
Nomad

Big wall of text. No separation in paragraphs takes away from your point. As well as your choice of descriptive wording.

ArcRifle6
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ArcRifle6
10 posts
Nomad

In times like this I feel that people have been mindlessly brainwashed to eat the bird shat pie that is put in front of them, and then they can never tell the difference between that bird shat and a real pie. My first point of this is Tower Defense games, which yes I am a notorious hater of. Only Cursed Gems and Bloons Tower Defense seem to have it right, you want to make your tower defense simple, fast, and fun. If you draw it out with slow moving enemies and huge Diablo type upgrade menus, you might as well cut your balls off and sell them to a hobo, if he'll buy them.

Looking at Bloons, you remove the element of "this tower kills this enemy" (except for a few VERY minor cases) and instead you just get "all of these towers will kill ALL of the enemy and you can add in a few to help you". And with Cursed Gems, you find very simple upgrade systems that are still very effective. I don't want to spend two-thirds of my game-play deciding which upgrades I want, I want to play the game, isn't that why the game was made? So it could be played?

Apparently not now a days, especially with another element ported from platform games to flash games, MICRO-MANAGEMENT. I have played Mass Effect, and yes I too had some complaints about the menu system, but micro-management works in a large game like that. When you add micro-management to a flash game, it is just like putting whipped cream on your pie only to find out that the cream was replaced with bird shat. Plus, reviewers have lost their actual credibility as reviewers.

If you dismiss a game just because it looks bad then go hang yourself, please. Many good concept games get left to die because everyone has to be knit-picky. Yes admittedly bad graphics can be a major let down for a game, but sometimes the complaint is made when the game wasn't intended to have good graphics. We as reviewers need to stop and say "Hey, is this concept good? Is fun? Is it playable? Is it new?" instead of the common tendency to rule it out on just a few elements.

There Psycho happy now?

AlderonArmor
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AlderonArmor
210 posts
Blacksmith

I had no problem reading his initial post and I agree with a lot of what he said, part of the very problem with people these days is displayed brilliantly by Psycho right there, stop being so critical. Arc makes some good points.

Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

Hehe not only all that large wall of text (no offence), but it's also that flash game developers often never seem to hit what they wanted to.

Often when he or she makes a game he has a good intention where to go with it and uses inspiration to help with it. But after about a week of development they could completely lose sight of what they were trying to do and mess it up quite good. very few games have a focused, cool storyline (Sonny 2 has an AMAZING one) or even balanced gameplay (sorry Colony).

I usually play a flash game and never see an interesting or unique storyline (albeit every type of storyline has been done but you could make it more indepth! Maybe your character isn't a perfect one, such as "The Company of Myself" ) I want to see some major engagement with it that would wnat me ot know what happens next !
Epic War 2 succeeded in that so well, whilst quite, I don't know, middle-earthy, it still shown alot of creativity and thought in it, and due to the explaination of the story on a per-level basis it greatly helped him keep focus on his project.

Anyway, there's probably more to it but I don't have the time sorry

Good post ArcRifle, good post

See ya!

- H

ArcRifle6
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ArcRifle6
10 posts
Nomad

Highfire I definitely agree with your point. Without any personal knowledge of it, I do believe that these days, for a flash game designer, simplicity no longer works. People want more and what may start as a good story-line is suddenly lost in the sweep of better graphics and bigger development. No doubt, I, just like the next person, do like to see good graphics and even some sort of micro-management, although keeping it minor and simple is best, but I think that I enjoy an 8-bit game with an amazing storyline and good simple game-play more than a high-end graphics flash game with complicated game-play and a small, unreadable storyline.

mwn3d
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mwn3d
53 posts
Jester

What are you doing reading? Aren't the games supposed to be played? When the story comes up I'm usually frantically searching for the skip button. I don't care what princess needs to be saved or what gem needs to be retrieved. I just want to play a freaking game. I really like Sonny 2, but I didn't read a single word of the story. Most of the time when I hate a game it's because it's unplayable (controls play a big part in that) or it just takes too long to feel like any progress is being made (Epic War 4).

I'll give some more examples.

Great game with no story: Flood Runner 2

Great TD with a story I don't care about: GemCraft (any of them), Protector 4

Game that takes too long and gets boring: Colony

Game that is ruined by bad controls: Battle Mage (though there are some other problems too)

Game that is ruined by bugs: Mana Chronicle

Game that never should have been made because the concept is just terrible: Faster Miter Master

Swordfishking
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Swordfishking
4 posts
Nomad

One of my favorite games has to be this one 8bit adventure game but i need help rememberingthe real title cause i haven't seen it in WEEKS it was like "legend of the sord" it was 8bit and had tonsa characters

Eddy01741
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Eddy01741
341 posts
Peasant

A couple of notes. The majority of tower defense games include all towers hitting all enemies. There's a long standing principle of having "flying" enemies and not letting splash damage towers hit them, but really, not a big issue.

Furthermore, there are many flash game tower defenses with simple upgrade systems. The father of the tower defense flash game, flash element TD, had asimple upgrade system. There are 5 (or was it 4, can't remember) tower types, upgrade towers individually, every 5 rounds IIRC a larger upgrade (to either increase interest or unlock new tower type).

The game I think you're referring to most with the "diablo type menu" and complicated unlocking as with an RPG is gemcraft. Yes, gemcraft has a complicated upgrading system, but when you look at it closely, so does cursed gems does too. You level up in both games, and can choose which upgrades to purchase to help your efforts in game.

Lastly, name me a good tower defense game with extensive micro management? Micro management usually comes from real time strategy games. I really don't see micro management in tower defense.

FinnDragon
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FinnDragon
993 posts
Blacksmith

What are you doing reading? Aren't the games supposed to be played? When the story comes up I'm usually frantically searching for the skip button. I don't care what princess needs to be saved or what gem needs to be retrieved. I just want to play a freaking game. I really like Sonny 2, but I didn't read a single word of the story. Most of the time when I hate a game it's because it's unplayable (controls play a big part in that) or it just takes too long to feel like any progress is being made (Epic War 4).

I agree with you.. and also disagree.Its a good thing that flash games have story, but they dont need to be so major.If you want a major story, read a bock!But games with a no story are so.. empty.Its weird that you dont know anything what is happennig and why.But some games are good without a proper story, like momentum missile mayhems.
mwn3d
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mwn3d
53 posts
Jester

When you guys say "cursed gems" do you mean Cursed Treasure? That game had a pretty complex upgrade system. The first time I played I had no idea what to upgrade. It didn't really give any indication as to what a lot of the special powers did either. I thought "fear" would send the monsters all the way back without me being able to kill them but it just sent them back a little bit to make them take longer.

vinster132
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vinster132
5,874 posts
Jester

Games like Sonny 2 are just incredible. A lot of effort was put in my Krin. This is why he is a good flash game creator. Many like Krin for his work. The story was pretty complicated in this game.

Like: Why was the tape just a song? Many other puzzles. A brain buster there.

Game that takes too long and gets boring: Colony

I completely disagree with this. Krin updates the game once and a while.

It isn't long. You just have to get into the hang of it.

Raze is also pretty good. But it can get pretty boring after you play it. I still think it's a great game. I just think he gets boring.

There should be a multiplayer touch. More weapons, more missions for the campaign, grenades where you throw not shoot out of the grenade launcher.

I expect a lot more from Raze 2. But sadly, Raze2 won't come out in a long time.

hmm...
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

Highfire I definitely agree with your point. Without any personal knowledge of it, I do believe that these days, for a flash game designer, simplicity no longer works. People want more and what may start as a good story-line is suddenly lost in the sweep of better graphics and bigger development. No doubt, I, just like the next person, do like to see good graphics and even some sort of micro-management, although keeping it minor and simple is best, but I think that I enjoy an 8-bit game with an amazing storyline and good simple game-play more than a high-end graphics flash game with complicated game-play and a small, unreadable storyline.


Hehe I prefer it in between:
Graphics - shows off the concept of the game better.
Gameplay - More things for the Graphics to show off.

Works both ways really, as there are some people who only like graphics (MW2 lol! jk, it sux tho ) and there are others who prefer gameplay, I need both though, because graphics gives you the "grasp" of the game, of what it's intended to be, of course, like my earlier point. But I do not agree with everything high graphics does (MW2 Again here ), it makes a large marker for publicity but it has a terrible effect on gameplay because you think it looks so awesome and have to show it ("everyone's doing it&quot which actually makes it even worse.

And story, I think you make it look sound terrible mwn3d, I prefer know what's going on and why I'm doing something, because again - it lets you know the intentions of the creator. I don't always like looking at a game for what it is, I prefer look at it for what it's supposed to be, and compare it to what it is. Because it lets you see what the creator is like, in a way, such as:

In Mardek 2, poor graphics but still really good, *SPOILERS* the pink haired guard kills another to prevent him from pretty much murdering the bandit leader, kills him on accident that is. The other 3 guards (including you and your friend) act as if he died in action to prevent her punishment. The next day - a discussion about whether it was right to kill him.

Now I don't know about you but it spoke alot to me, I rarely see a game or people talk about right or wrong anymore and if they get one glimpse of it they would feel more guilt than anything because of their loss of sight (again, like the development) and unintentionally becomes bad.
I really appreciate the creator taking in that consideration, as well as building on characters and showing some actual moral in a game which has reflected on me greatly, which was also the same with Fable 1, I played it and saw how what I done reflected future actions (I now think "How couldn't it?!" now). Whilst sounding sad, I don't care - it actually taught me a valuble lesson which was key in making me the person I am today, which I am very grateful for, also like Mass Effect, how you &quotut" things, whilst years later of course but I never fully realised (which I hate myself for..) I didn't really try making it sound good or tried making people see the better side. Albeit probably because I would expect them to see why I would say it and be grateful, but still - doesn't help.

No mwn3d, I can see your point entirely, I can see why you would prefer just play the game and miss out on stories, because in the end it doesn't give any entertainment (to some people, I actually like it though) and sometimes a bit too in depth (Orcs are bad, bad = dead, you = hero, hero = have to do everything, everything > killing bads, no depth and requires little explaination, and gameplay can be explained per level in a sentence really). But in the end I would like to see why they do it in a more indepth story with hopefully no mary sues (Mary Sue = perfect character all over, no flaws. Epic War 2 didn't have a Mary Sue either, becaused you was quite disrespectful to orcs first meeting them, which I am glad they shown it properly, however some characters were not properly explained as they were consumed by shadows.

Sonny 2 was a completely awesome storyline, much more indepth than what meets the eye.

Back in the day when there was actually a separate sonny forum location, there were discussions about multiple things, one being the proper story of everything that happened. Now the creator was indeed smart and must've taken a long while creating a story arc this well, I don't know where those forums went however because I stopped posting for a while when they were gone. But he gave hints and little bits of info that helped uncover "the mystery", this was also before Zones 6 and 7 were out on Sonny 2, so it was indeed quite hard
Point was, that was entertaining hypothosizing and thinking about what the storyline actually was, why it happened and if it was even a good one that considered realistic factors (although zombies aren't necessarily realistic, but you know... )

Anyway, wall of text has no ended, beat down on it as you please.

- H
Gantic
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Gantic
11,889 posts
King

In Mardek 2, poor graphics but still really good, *SPOILERS* the pink haired guard kills another to prevent him from pretty much murdering the bandit leader, kills him on accident that is. The other 3 guards (including you and your friend) act as if he died in action to prevent her punishment. The next day - a discussion about whether it was right to kill him.

Now I don't know about you but it spoke alot to me, I rarely see a game or people talk about right or wrong anymore and if they get one glimpse of it they would feel more guilt than anything because of their loss of sight (again, like the development) and unintentionally becomes bad.


Mardek has so much depth that comparing any flash game to Mardek is like comparing the responsibilities of a small town mayor to the responsibilities of the POTUS. It makes Sonny look like a children's bedtime story. The depth and freedom are unbelievable, especially when figuring only one guy is working on this and fitting in seamlessly multiple subplots in the Mardek/Rohoph story with bonus gameplay that requires more than just figuring out the what skills and kit is best for beating what. (Sure, one could play it that way but miss out on the story.)

However, I think the discussion "morality" and "ethics" which follow into Mardek 3 (and Mardek is far far far greater in breadth than Mardek 2) if compared to games will appear novel but compared to storytelling? It's nothing new. In fact, in Mardek 3, the discussion of ethics and morality literally gets to the point of self-parody in more than one regard and specifically addresses the issue with killing monsters. It also goes over duty, but I'm not certain to what degree. What's really surprising about Mardek is the amount of immersion the player experiences in a fleshed out story and world that will only expand until the climactic battle and we are left wondering if there will ever be another game with such depth.
BlackVortex
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BlackVortex
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Nomad

I don't read the stories usually, I'm more looking for the skip button and I just press the start button to play and find out what to do as I go along, unless I get really stuck I have to look in the menu for what to do I don't read anything.

Although I played Sonny 2 and reset it after a little while to start from the beginning and read the story, that's the only exception.

I like simple games like Exit Path, Raze, This is the only level (TOO), Crush the Castle 2 etc.
Just games you can play to waste some time and enjoy, not have to concentrate or follow a story or plot, but that's just me.

If I wanted to follow a plot or story I'd go watch a film or something xD

Gantic
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Gantic
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King

specifically addresses the issue with killing monsters


With regard to what I said, Mardek is clearly a parody of RPGs and what was said may not at all be canonical, being that it's not information crucial or found during the main story line and is found in a book. It clearly is a response to the issue with killing monsters but also appears contradictory or not applicable within certain aspects of the game if it is not entirely tongue-in-cheek, especially because you're fighting your own demons... haha

---
I don't like games that leave the player in a rut, and this includes micro-management systems and games where you have to do it perfectly, especially if it's very unforgiving, tedious, and overly long. On the other hand, I dislike the game even more if I can find way around the gameplay and win the game in an easier manner, thus proving the game is completely overblown with all its complexities. (Or should I dislike the former more as it forces the player into the rut in the first place?)

The former I find with the final bonus battles of both Sonny games as well as GemCraft 2. Yeah, I know how to beat the final bosses in Sonny and Sonny 2 but it's bonus material, so it doesn't figure into this argument anyway. If it were part of normal gameplay it would be disheartening. It's repetitive and one mistake will cause the player start all over again. What's to gain? GemCraft 2 is just overly long and tedious. It isn't hard to figure a winning strategy but to jump through all those hoops is not worth it. It really isn't. It gives the feeling of being overwhelmed with tedium. Then again, I have only ever played GemCraft 2 on long train rides.

The latter I find in something like Civilizations Wars and Epic War 4 where you can just repeat the easiest level over and over again to get upgrades, then completely wipe out the enemy easily in every single level regardless of the difficulty. It's heckuvalot easier than micromanaging units in a near endless give and take when you're just going to whittle down the defenses regardless of what you do.

I agree that simplicity makes a good game. Can you imagine an aggressively difficult map being part of the normal gameplay of Portal? It'd completely gut people. I really think Fancy Pants Adventures is one of the best flash games. It has a simple premise with simple gameplay. There aren't insane pits of doom or wall of spikes and really difficult platforms (not in normal gameplay anyway). The only really frustrating bits are bonus bits, like playing snail golf. Maybe it's too simple, but at leas it's not so complex that you start wondering if it's even worth it to play the game.
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