ForumsWEPRIn Theory and In Practice

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Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

One argument that I am annoyed by immensely is the argument - "X may be true in theory, but is not true in practice."

Let me pose this question - if it does not work in practice, then why? There must be reasons for this.

These reasons are either:
A. Unrelated to X; therefore it still works in theory and can work in practice - it's a correlation issue in this case.
B. An inherent flaw in X - in this case there is something wrong with the theory.

Your ideas?

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

therefore it still works in theory and can work in practice


A theory is still a theory. Until a hypothesis can be confirmed by experiments, observation and evidence to support the theory, it's still on the drawing board.

Take Communism. In theory it's a swell idea. But so far all attempts at it have been corrupted and failed.
thepossum
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thepossum
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Nomad

Not to mention that the theory might be untestable.

Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

A theory is still a theory


OK - what? "In theory" is distinctly different from "a theory."

Take Communism. In theory it's a swell idea. But so far all attempts at it have been corrupted and failed.


You make the assumption that:

A - Communism in theory is a good idea. You do realize what communism entails, right? It requires
i. No private ownership of anything.
ii. A central government that performs all the economic transactions, etc.

Let's just look at ii. for right now. A central government is much more inefficient than a capitalistic free-market. Because it does not allow for mutually beneficial transactions between consenting parties.
When a person accepts a job, they do so by their own accord - they see that action as the most conducive action towards their happiness.
In communism this option is lost - thus, millions of mutually beneficial actions are outlawed. This, by the way, is how prices are determined. A government is unable to determine the &quotrices" of millions of items. And also - these &quotrices" they come up with are meaningless because they are not chosen by the consumer.

Communism is often pictured as this ideal anarchist utopia, when in reality (AND in theory) it is nothing but totalitarianism and inefficiency.
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Not to mention that the theory might be untestable.


Again - IN theory, not THE theory.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

A - Communism in theory is a good idea. You do realize what communism entails, right? It requires
i. No private ownership of anything.
ii. A central government that performs all the economic transactions, etc.


The second point is wrong. In the final stage of true Communism, there would be no government, the central government concept is merely a stage, a transitional phase, the proletarian dictatorship which is a step towards achieving communism.


These are what Marx considered as the progress of Europe's political scenes.

Marx considered that these socio-economic conflicts have historically manifested themselves as distinct stages (one transitional) of development in Western Europe.

Primitive Communism: as in co-operative tribal societies.
Slave Society: a development of tribal progression to city-state; Aristocracy is born.

Feudalism: aristocrats are the ruling class; merchants evolve into capitalists.

Capitalism: capitalists are the ruling class, who create and employ the proletariat.

Socialism: workers gain class consciousness, and via proletarian revolution depose the capitalist dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, replacing it in turn with dictatorship of the proletariat through which the socialization of the means of production can be realized.

Communism: a classless and stateless society.


AND in theory) it is nothing but totalitarianism and inefficiency.



In a nutshell, Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.

In the schema of historical materialism and in Marx's theories, communism is the idea of a free society with no division or alienation, where mankind is free from oppression and scarcity. A communist society would have no governments, countries, or class divisions.

In modern usage, communism is often used to refer to the policies of these governments, which were one party systems operating under centrally planned economies and a state ownership of the means of production. Most of these governments based their ideology on Marxism-Leninism. These governments did not call the system they had set up "communism", instead claiming that they had set up a transitional socialist system. Mao for one explicitly states the Revolution was not over after the Civil War of 1949. This system is sometimes referred to as state socialism. Many, including those on the left, argue that these states never made an attempt to transition to a communist society, while others even argue that they never achieved socialism.




In practice it was. In theory no. Please understand what Communism was on paper and what it was before justifying your points.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Sense 1 in theory
Meaning: According to the assumed facts
Synonyms: in theory; theoretically; on paper
Context example: on paper the candidate seems promising

Sense 2 in theory
Meaning: With regard to fundamentals although not concerning details
Synonyms: in principle; in essence; in theory
Context example: in principle, we agree

Sense 3 in theory
Meaning: As described in contrast to as practiced
Synonyms: on paper; in theory
Context example: on paper, this looks like a good idea


Which do you mean?

Einfach
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Einfach
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Nomad

OK - if your first post is true, you are talking about 2 different systems of government - I'll reserve my words for when and if we debate communism, but if you do start a topic, make sure to call the topic "communist anarchism" NOT "communism" because the second is specific to the definition you provide. It would be fallicious to say both were the same. Thus, the OP holds.

Sense 1 or Sense 2 - define "fundamentals" - and Sense 3 is purely subjective (as apparent by "this looks like a good idea&quot.

I am assuming only:
1. There is a logical "right."
2. The "In Practice" part is like a scientific test - if it doesn't work in practice, it can be from confounding factors or X can just be wrong. We are also assuming an infinite sample size, as well, so that we know that it either "works" or "doesn't work."

Einfach
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Einfach
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Nomad

Excuse my error above - instead of "communist anarchism" I meant "anarcho-communism" or "Anarchist communism."

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

"communist anarchism" NOT "communism" because the second is specific to the definition you provide. It would be fallicious to say both were the same. Thus, the OP holds.


Anarchist communism (also known as anarcho-communism or libertarian communism) is a theory of anarchism which advocates the abolition of the state, private property, and capitalism in favor of common ownership of the means of production, direct democracy and a horizontal network of voluntary associations and workers' councils with production and consumption based on the guiding principle: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need".


Communism on the other hand, is different. Marxist-Leninists believe that without a transitionary period of state control (their interpretation of the dictatorship of the proletariat) it would be impossible for any revolution to maintain the momentum or cohesion to defend the new society against external and internal threats. Friedrich Engels noted: "Without a previous social revolution the abolition of the state is nonsense; the abolition of capital is in itself the social revolution and involves a change in the whole method of production."

So my answer to your claim of
second is specific to the definition you provide
? No. Communist Anarchism and Communism have their own subtle differences.

Just as a further evidence to show how they are two different ideological strains with a few similarities, anarchists such as Nestor Makhno worked to create and defend- through the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine- anarchist communism in the Free Territory of the Ukraine from 1919 before being conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921.

If you need clarification, the Communism I mentioned in my first post is orthodox Marxist Communism. Which is attained through the six steps I mentioned earlier.

Thus, the OP holds


I fail to see why it does simply because we have thrashed out some arguments about Communism.


2. The "In Practice" part is like a scientific test - if it doesn't work in practice, it can be from confounding factors or X can just be wrong.


Similarly, I can also say that although it works in practice it can be due to irregularities and flukes. Perhaps you could cite some examples to clarify your points.
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Just to elaborate about the Communism bit.

Anarcho-communists reject the Leninist model of the "dictatorship of the proletariat," arguing that any revolutionary minority taking over state power would be just as authoritarian as the ruling class in capitalism to defend the new state, and would eventually constitute itself as a new ruling class. As an extension of this, Anarcho-communists counter-argue that decentralized, stateless collective federations are sufficient to give both power to workers and preserve personal freedom and point to the fact that no socialist state has ever showed signs of "withering away".

Zydrate
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Zydrate
383 posts
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I theorize I could go learn how to fly a Jet.

In practice? It would be way above my level of intelligence.

A more realistic note. I theorized I could try college and succeed. I failed.
So in practice, it didn't work.

So what's the argument here? Seems pretty simple to me.

Einfach
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Einfach
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Nomad

I Theorize - completely different from "in theory" which means, according to assumptions A, you can logically conclude X. In practice, does it work?

Not - I think I can fly! It is - Because you wouldn't apply in theory to that. In theory most certainly not means I think or I conjecture or I suppose or I guess or Probably what will happen is or This looks good - therefore it's good "in theory." No straw man arguments.

nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

One argument that I am annoyed by immensely is the argument - "X may be true in theory, but is not true in practice."


When I use this argument, I usually do so to refute the practice of the theory, not to undermine the theory? I don't utilise it to bring down a theory.

Like, Communism in theory is good, but in practice not so. Why? Because it's implemented wrongly.

Erm....wait....so why am I arguing....
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Like, Communism in theory is good, but in practice not so.


There are two communisms that you are talking about
An-communism (what you call it in "theory&quot
Totalitarian Communism (what you call what it is in &quotractice&quot
nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

Well since An-Communism has not been in practice before, I can only judge based on what people call Communism (i.e Totalitarian Communism).

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