I always hear people say things like, "I support the troops, but not the war."
This way, even though they are opposed to the war for whatever reason, they can still act patriotic and show empathy towards people who are fighting and risking their lives for their country.
But I don't really see how this is possible. Aren't troops a very important part of warfare? By actively supporting troops, are you not actively helping the war effort?
And yet, just a few days ago a fellow student said that it is one's duty as an American to show support for the troops, no matter how you feel about the war. And everyone in the class nodded in agreement.
I personally am an uncompromising believer in pacifism. How can I possibly support someone who volunteers to go to another country and kill people, and gets paid to do so?
In other words, can someone support an individual soldier when they oppose the entire concept of the military?
well upon signing up for the military (or atleast the US military)... if they get told to deploy then they have to deploy where they are told to deploy. if they abandon ship so to speak then they go to jail for a very long time and their lives are potentially ruined (if they get caught of course). the fact they happen to get paid is irrelevant. they are not mercenaries... they cannot just up and quit w/o consequence.
of all of the people i know of who went into the military ( 10'ish give or take) did not go because they wanted to kill everyone who went against the US... they went because they needed money, health benefits, school paid for, and/or/but not limited to forced military service due to too many dui's (and other crimes).
there are those that join simply to kill for the fun of killing... but i've never met any.
most were just every day average people who have no control over what they're told to do once in.
let me ask you this... if the draft was still going on and you got drafted w/ no way out and were deployed to a hostile environment would you want people to support you?
"i support the troops and not the war because if there were no troops i'd have to be the troops and i would be the worst troops, i'd be like ' you expect me to carry a gun and run away screaming'
my part is the fact we never really needed to go to iraq in the first place
let me ask you this... if the draft was still going on and you got drafted w/ no way out and were deployed to a hostile environment would you want people to support you?
The draft isn't going on. If it was, I would protest the government, and/or flee to Canada. I would never, under no circumstances (and I mean that) join the military. If I was brainwashed or something into joining, I would want people at home to do everything possible to keep me from hurting anyone.
If that means putting my own life in danger, then so be it.
they get told to deploy then they have to deploy where they are told to deploy.
But they know this when they sign up. Everyone who signs up for the U.S. military knows what a military is. Signing up with the expectation that you will never enter combat does not excuse you from the fact that you joined an institution that uses violence to accomplish its aims.
let me ask you this... if the draft was still going on and you got drafted w/ no way out and were deployed to a hostile environment would you want people to support you?
you can always plead as a pacifist or conscientious objector
But they know this when they sign up. Everyone who signs up for the U.S. military knows what a military is. Signing up with the expectation that you will never enter combat does not excuse you from the fact that you joined an institution that uses violence to accomplish its aims.
draft dodging was/would still be a crime, and I believe that canada might just send you right back if they happen to catch you.
some people have no choice but to join the military or be a bum.
i know a few that just couldn't hold a job or just couldn't get a job... the only way to support themselves and/or their families was to enlist. for some... their only hope of going to college (due to debts and/or poor families)is enlisting.
for some its either jail for a long time or enlisting...
i am very anit-war.... i don't like for people to get hurt... but I do not subscribe to the belief that fighting is never applicable.
again hypothetical draft situation....yes its hypothetical...
you may or may not have siblings... on the assumption you did and at least 2 of you were of age... i don't know if i am remembering correctly or if my mind is fabricating things again but i think there was something to the effect of only one child per family was subject to draft (may be wrong)... if you dodged and your sibling chose to stay and was then drafted in your place would that change anything? (i think maybe if its you're the last of your family name then you wouldn't be subject to it...)
And yet, just a few days ago a fellow student said that it is one's duty as an American to show support for the troops, no matter how you feel about the war. And everyone in the class nodded in agreement.
This is bull**** brainwashing. I'd bet that many are rolling their eyes inside, yet don't dare be the black sheep of the class.
If my nation ever got into a war, I'd be supporting the troops. Why? Because we have conscription =.= So I'll be carrying the gun with my dad and my bro.
I suppose you can support the troops, boost morale and stuff. So they know the populace is behind them. But with the troops still stuck in the Middle East for a decade, it's kind of getting a little cliche and cheesy, to 'Support the troops.'.
draft dodging was/would still be a crime, and I believe that canada might just send you right back if they happen to catch you.
The draft would be so unpopular that it would be extremely difficult for the government to send someone to war if they really didn't want to go. I don't mind breaking a law I strongly don't agree with.
for some its either jail for a long time or enlisting...
Source? And why should I support giving criminals machine guns...?
i know a few that just couldn't hold a job or just couldn't get a job... the only way to support themselves and/or their families was to enlist. for some... their only hope of going to college (due to debts and/or poor families)is enlisting.
Given how welfare happy our country is, this isn't a legitimate argument. Also, I would hope our military has higher standards than home depot or McDonald's, when it comes to hiring.
you dodged and your sibling chose to stay and was then drafted in your place would that change anything?
Nope. Compared to the rest of my family, I'm practically conservative. They would already be in France.
Furthermore, you are missing the point of the thread. The issue isn't that I refuse to support all soldiers. I simply refuse to support a person just because they are a soldier.
If my sister was drafted, of course I would still support her. Not because she is a soldier, but because she is my sister. Get it? Making the issue personal defeats the purpose of the question.
Something I don't agree on is the scripting thing. It's not my fault my countries going to war, and If I want no part in it, I shouldn't have to be apart OF it. This Applies to supporting the troops, I don't care for them. I hear about 40 aussies have died last year (Hypothetically speaking), and everyones all sad and we just need to send more in. What do they thinks going to happen? They get theyre and are given lollipops for a job well done?
I, personally do not know much about warfare and armies and these 'troops' but I still stand by what I say.
ak..... would you mind me asking your age?... just for curiousity.
as for your requested source... i thought it was common knowledge but depending on the seriousness of the crime you can have your crime, for lack of better terminology, forgiven if you enlist. as for my source, I have a, now, 25 year old brother. when he was 21 he (always lived w/ his mother and not w/ my immediate family) he kept getting dui's... he kept getting into fights... he kept getting into other troubles... the judge gave him the ultimatum. either have a large fine (he has no money and his mother stopped paying for him b/c of his age) and sit in jail for years. He opted for military service and became a field medic (the ones in movies that come running when someone gets shot on the field and everyone yells "MEDIC!!!"... yea... that guy." i followed your mentality and supported him not b/c he was a soldier... but b/c he was my brother...
i had a friend who was caught doing 110 mph on a 55 or 65 mile an hour speed zone... they said they would drop the charges (felony offense) if he joined the airforce... which he ended up doing. all you have is my word that those are indeed facts... those were the only sources I went off of... other than hearing of other people i don't really know (friends of friends) going through the same thing.
the other people that are over there now... they are not my brothers, cousins, father, uncles, mother, sisters (don't actually have any), aunts, children, or grandparents... but they are to someone else. For a group of people in this sort of situation, I would assume that having low morale, being ill supplied, and no support would quite possibly lead to more of their deaths then what could've been prevented if those things and others were different. The time they're over there is not their decision. Large numbers of people are going to die on both sides. if the only way you can minimize the deaths is on one side then i still think having one more father coming home b/c of your support then there would've been w/o it then it is a cause worth supporting
you say they choose to join an institution that kills... and that's bad...or at least that's part of how i read it... that is part of your belief, and i respect that.
other people have more of a defending those that can't defend themselves...and sometimes that means killing another person mentality
(sorry for this not being proper symbolism...its the best i could think of) think of the countries as children on a play ground w/o supervision. there are several possible outcomes as to how these children will act. they could all treat each other w/ respect and play nice..... or as is sometimes seen, there are one or two...sometimes more... kids who decide they want to bully another who is weaker. now... the other children can sit back and watch,cheer on, ignore, or intervene in the situation. Choosing to stay out of it so that you and/or your faculties don't get injured and/or b/c you don't see violence as an answer is a respectable opinion (the "you" and "faculties" being your own people)....
now there are those who would willingly risk their own health to stop the bullying... or what equates to the bullier knocking the other child down on the ground and kicking them in the face and maybe others are helping to beat the kid. knowing that they will in fact get hurt, but they're either the only one capable and/or willing to try and stop this injustice... but to do it simply just talking to the people won't work. blood must be shed and everyone will get hurt. (a new thought... this is instead a neighborhood playground and there are no adults around... neighborhood is apparently a good one (bullying is unknown to parents so they let their kids go there by themselves))....waiting on someone else to take care of the problem is only going to have that bullied kid get hurt worse
but then again if you don't help out even tho you can its not your fault if the kid gets hurt b/c it wasn't your problem to begin with.
as i said earlier... pacifism is an honorable choice... but i would say that doing what must be done is also just as honorable. if you say that all things can be resolved without violence I will then ask you what type of problem are we talking about b/c we're not talking about humans
some of them do what they do b/c they think they are helping that bullied kid... after Saddam Hussein was taken out of the picture the country started trying democracy.... willingly... if they didn't want us there they would've just put the next dictator on the stand and all continued fighting us... instead of the small factions that still support the old regime.
a more real example based off of the play ground one... if left alone and Saddam had more of the people in his country and those surrounding killed (lets make up a number ( the general concept is all that needs to get across))and the deaths totaled around to some number like 1000 per year.... and now that he is no longer around the number looks something like 200 per year (all numbers made up)... of if through the duration of his life another 2,000 innocent people were to be killed and now that he's no longer here that is now 2,000 (most likely lots more if he himself had started a war) people that won't have died due to him being alive... something like that , in the mind of some of our military people, would be justification enough to use violence... b/c being pacifist and leaving him alone would, in their minds, left more people dead than what overthrowing him and rebuilding his country took.
but the problem stands w/ the fact that people can't agree on whether that we, the US (one of the largest military powers in the world), should be that kid who stands up to the bullies and does what is necessary to to stop them... or if the US should simply say "not my problem"..............
I personally find that one kid worth supporting. The reasons the troops fight may be different from the reasons stated by the president that sent them over there. (individuals enlisting could qualify for the "one kid" concept... as well as the country)
i hope i didn't lose too many people... and my goal was not to make anyone angry or to insult anyone (don't think i did that). both ideologies are valid w/ their own logic in my opinion.
...if u require more sources on the ultimatum given my brother and friend then i'll google it upon request and post whatever i find then
i had a friend who was caught doing 110 mph on a 55 or 65 mile an hour speed zone... they said they would drop the charges (felony offense) if he joined the airforce... which he ended up doing. all you have is my word that those are indeed facts... those were the only sources I went off of... other than hearing of other people i don't really know (friends of friends) going through the same thing.
That's dumb. 110 on a 65 can't be any more than a $1000 ticket. That or join the military. HMMM.
it wasn't his first offense (he's a heavy drinker and may've been drunk... but that part is speculation) and he was going to serve jail time on top of whatever fine they were going to give him... plus strip his license for a long time
i wonder what a dui w/ a 110 in a 65 or 55 gets you....
