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Linktopast30
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Linktopast30
109 posts
Jester

I'm starting this topic to "continue" a conversation started in the Christians vs. Catholics thread. I will include some of the details from there, but the rest are up to anyone new to read up on. I will specifically post the contents of one post, more or less.

We did not baptize Adolf Hitler. That is a lie. After people baptized for Obama's mother, an official release was sent out saying that unless you specifically know the person who's name you are bringing in to do temple work for (not the names that they already have) or they are in your family, you cannot do temple work for them.

We are not barred from being around ex Mormons. We do not necessarily believe they are with Satan. We excommunicate people for their good. In our views, it gives them a second chance. They can rejoin the church later, and their sins will be gone, just as they were when they were first baptized. I know many ex Mormons, and I do not get in trouble for being with them.

South Park is in no way an authority on anything. The fact that you're trying to cite that is pathetic.

Yes, there was polygamy. But it was revoked in the 1890's (even if only for legal reasons). Joseph Smith did not try to burn down a newspaper place. He was taken to jail for no real reason. If he shot back, it was only because they were shooting at him.

The reason non members are not allowed in the temple is because of the sacred things that go on in there. If just anyone was allowed in, the spirit would be disrupted. I will expound on this if needs be.

I am personally ashamed of the acts of other Latter-Day Saints who have done temple work for people without permission from relatives of that person. It is wrong, and we know it.

Tithing... It was actually in Christ's day when it started. The only reason it affects our worthiness to enter the temple (not our standing in general). The Lord gave us everything we have, and all he asks is 10% of what we earn. I'd say that's a pretty small price for life, liberty, and happiness.

Also, we believe in Agency and Accountability. You can choose to do what you want, but you will have to accept the consequences.

I have a testimony of Jesus Christ. He is my savior and my redeemer. I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that Thomas S. Monson is the living prophet today. I believe the Bible to be true as far as it is correctly translated. I know that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can be forgiven for our sins and return to live with our Heavenly Father. I have seen the Atonement in action in my life. I know that God listens to all prayers to him. He answers them in his own way. I know that I can make it to the Celestial Kingdom if I but do my best to keep the commandments of God.

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Linktopast30
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Linktopast30
109 posts
Jester

I feel really lame for not having posted that thing yet. I do have it in progress (wording it right so it isn't plagiarism is hard!), and I will just say it's done when it's done.

I think this thread is dying out, though, so the Plan of Salvation might be my last post on it, unless people then have fresh questions about it. I should have time to finish putting it together tomorrow and Saturday. Sorry for the long wait and broken promises!

@E1337: That is a very strange way to use stem cell research.

As for your other post about the HIV being cured, that is awesome. That probably is or will be a large contributor to the progress of finding a cure-all for HIV. At worst, it's a step in the right direction. Now, if only they could get rid of my asthma and allergies... not having ADHD and Bipolar would be nice, too, lol...

Linktopast30
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Linktopast30
109 posts
Jester

Well, this week has been interesting. Just read the dialog between Einfach and me on each other's comment page. I'll just put it straight: due to a friend committing suicide, I have been very busy with other things. I am almost done with my post (just a little bit more!), and I HOPE to have it out by Saturday. Anyways, feel free to ask questions until then... although I kind of feel like I'm more just bumping this topic up now, though. It'll be worth it when I finally post what I've been meaning to post for the past two weeks.

Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

that they will have to pay in spirit prison, after this life.

Can you give me any evidence whatsoever to suggest the existence of a God - just throwing that out there. If it seemed logical, I would be bound to believe it, but as it stands, there doesn't seem to be any evidence, deductive or inductive.

Evolution seems to perfectly explain the origins of people. Also, I find that many things in the Bible or other religious texts advocate policies that are authoritarian or are contrary to Utilitarianism, and I could not believe in something like that without sound evidence for authoritarianism or against Utilitarianism.

You cannot have a God that dictates morality. The truth of morality dictates what God believes.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

i personally believe that proof is a matter of perspective.


Objective evidence is something that everyone can see regardless of personal perspectives. For example if someone claimed to have a ball and produces a ball, everyone can independently see he has a ball. With personal opinion everyone can arrive at a different answer and non of them may actually be correct.
So in short proof isn't a matter of perspective. It's a matter of what can be objectively demonstrated.

things as simple as the ocean, and things like the complexity of thermal dynamics seem like proof to me that there is something larger than us at work.


In what way do these things indicate something larger at work? More specifically that larger something being God (assuming that's what your getting at here)

know that i have heard it all and researched all alternatives to religion very thoroughly and the only difference between the two groups, is when you die nothing happens, and when i die, i go to live with the rest of my family and friends, and my heavenly father.


There are more alternatives then that. For instance there's the one saying you are reborn as a new form of life, or the one where you remain here on earth as a ghost.
Also while the option of going to heaven and chilling with God may be the more comforting one to you, that doesn't make it reality.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

i have proof that many others believe. the fact that you refuse to believe does not make it not proof.


If there was proof religion wouldn't have to rely on faith to believe. It's not a refusal, it's because of the lack of proof. If it was objectively demonstrated that God existed I would accept it.

and i do not appreciate the condescending tone when you say it is not reality. it IS a reality for me, and many others like me.


Reality isn't a subjective state. It either exists or does not exist. It may seem real to you and others who are like you, but unless there is actually something demonstrating it's existence that can be independently verified then we can't say it is real.

Now please explain, who are these things you mention proof of the existence of God?


i am not trying to push my religion down your throat, so please don't push your atheism down mine.


This isn't like I'm knocking on your door to tell you how God doesn't exist. Your coming into a section set up to discuss and debate such topics. So expect to run into people who will disagree with you and actually say why.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Honestly, if you don't want to discuss anything here, why did you even come here and post your opinion? You're not getting any more credible by refusing to explain or defend it.
Btw, scientific theories are built on facts. What facts do you have to build your opinion upon?

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

besides that, how can you say i have no proof when you yourself are calling theories and concepts proof. is that not what religion is??


A scientific theory is the explanation for all the observed evidence. So the theory isn't the proof it's the explanation of the proof. Since you claim to have proof we have the right to ask what that proof is.
Einfach
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Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

besides that, how can you say i have no proof when you yourself are calling theories and concepts proof

If you're not a skeptic, you have to accept scientific ideas concerning evolution, because it has been observed. You also have to accept the deductive evidence for evolution, which must occur whether there is a God or not.
If you're a skeptic, I don't see how you can believe in God, anyway.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

I just watched this video from someone who use to be Mormon and why they stopped.

Why I'm No Longer Mormon

Asherlee
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Asherlee
5,001 posts
Shepherd

I watched that, Mage. I feel like teaching people to think in that manner is very dangerous. She described it as 'cultish,' which appears to fit.

I'm anxious to see what LinktoPast says about it.

Linktopast30
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Linktopast30
109 posts
Jester

Well, it's been quite some time, hasn't it? Since my last post, I have been struggling to figure out who I am. For a while, and possibly even still, I had some gender dysphoria and swung rapidly between male and female, and considered going through HRT a lot. I'm now in a different phase where I'm almost completely lost to myself. My mind is a raging storm of chaos and emotion that seems to be tearing me apart on the inside. Needless to say, some of my views on life have changed. Some have changed more significantly than others, but I still am strong in my faith, and, if anything, a little more Christlike in that I am not so quick to judge anymore. As such, I am sorry if I have offended anyone in this thread, and ask that you would forgive me.

I seem to have missed someone's post somewhere, and it must have gotten deleted. As such, I don't know how to answer most of what is said before MageGrayWolf posted the "Why I'm No Longer Mormon" video. Let me answer that video now. I will be answering the issues as I remember them, so bear with me.

Temples. I believe she said that if we're all about family, then why can't our whole family enter the temple to watch the marriage? Marriage in the temple is eternal, and is the only way to truly be with your family forever. What a small price to pay for such a great thing. Also, if not anything else, at least think of the difference in atmosphere between a place where the couple being married, the temple workers, and adults who are worthy are the only ones present, and one where kids are crying, running around, eating snacks, etc. The first is peaceful and the spirit can dwell there fully, while the second is more chaotic, and the spirit is not as strong. I also don't see what is cultish about what goes on in the temple. I've done temple work on numerous occasions. None of it at all seems cultish. Baptisms for the dead, or proxy baptisms, aren't cultish at all. I'll even explain what happens if you want me to.

Sexism. She couldn't be more wrong. Women have a divine role and are highly respected. For a man to be worthy to hold the priesthood, he must show proper respect to women, girls, and children. If he does not, he is cut off from the priesthood. This is why viewing pornography is a serious sin. Beyond that, it is the women who will choose whether they want to continue living with their spouses in the afterlife. Many men will arrive and find with great sorrow that their former wife no longer wants to be with him. At this point, it won't be some whimsical reason like "I'm just not attracted to him." The reason will be something more along the lines of "He had no respect for me" or "he was abusive". Men who are disrespectful to their wives will receive their just consequences in heaven.

The role of women is not to just have babies. The girl almost sounds like we believe that women are only good for having children, and that's it. This simply is not the case. Yes, women have the divine role to raise and nurture their children, but that's expected of mothers everywhere. The idea of a stay-at-home mom is inconceivable now. It often takes both parents to work one or more full- or part-time jobs to maintain a living. Both parents, not just women, are expected to raise their children in righteousness. This does not mean that either parent is a failure if the child is not righteous. Children have their own agency.

Brainwashihg. I can see how she thinks this, but logic leads me to say she's wrong. You might as well say the government is brainwashing kids in elementary school, too. In fact, that's more likely to affect a child's behavior because school happens 5 times a week, while church only happens once a week. Let me tell you, I've been through primary (which is where this "brainwashing" probably occurs according to the girl), and I'm still a normal person. Really, primary is about teaching children the very basics of the gospel. Other religions have similar things to this. When I was in alabama, I went to a daycare/school that was either Methodist, Lutheran, or Baptist (I can't remember which). They did the same things daily as what is done weekly in primary.

As for her view of what the afterlife will be, where men will get their own planets and have tons of wives to have sex with, I know exactly where that comes from, or at least one source of it. I saw it in that video E1337 posted. It's false doctrine. Now, those who had plural wives will have what wives choose to remain, but no more, no less. We don't believe we'll have 40 virgins or something to satisfy us. Now, as for the planet thing, that's also somewhat false. Yes, we will be as our Heavenly Father, but that's about all we know.

If there's anything I missed, please tell me. Also tell me if there's anything that needs clarified.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Marriage in the temple is eternal, and is the only way to truly be with your family forever. What a small price to pay for such a great thing.


Some how that come off as seeming just a bit creepy to me.


Sexism. She couldn't be more wrong. Women have a divine role and are highly respected.


Considering she is a woman I have to wonder how she missed that respect while in the church then.

Brainwashihg. I can see how she thinks this, but logic leads me to say she's wrong.


I'm so far not seeing much if any logic in Mormonism.

I might try to pass what your saying on to her. Not sure if I would even get a reply though.
Linktopast30
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Linktopast30
109 posts
Jester

@E1337 no, couples can divorce in the mortal life. I've had relatives who have gone through divorces. It's semi-complicated, but it happens.

@MageGrayWolf yes, I do feel sorry for that girl because whatever she went through to get that belief can't be good. I really dislike people who disrespect women. Also, it's not Mormon logic that leads me to say what I did. It's rational logic based on what I've seen and experienced. Take it as you please, though. I'm just here to answer questions and shed some light on the subject.

I got in a bit of theological argument last night on IRC (#xkcd on irc.foonetic.net) with someone. If anything, it made me look at things more objectively. One of the people was transgendered, the other atheist after having believed in god, and the third ex-mormon. I must say it was a pretty interesting conversation. I talked about how sometimes people can be the answers to prayers. I believe these three people were answers, in a way. Without two of them, I wouldn't be alive right now. The third (the ex-mormon) is just really kind and gave me some advice for life in general.

Anyways, I enjoy having these discussions. I learn more and more about myself as they happen. Thanks!

Linktopast30
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Linktopast30
109 posts
Jester

by the way, I haven't forgotten about my massive response. I'm working on it! I have had a few unexpected setbacks as illustrated in a couple of my posts. But, I'll be finishing it soon!

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Anyways, I enjoy having these discussions. I learn more and more about myself as they happen. Thanks!


That's great it hear.
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