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Forums → WEPR → religion (pretty sure its not a retoast)
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I have been studying different religions for a while, and atheism as well, but i have a problem. I like them both!! I guess a breakdown is in order;
Atheism: I love how it enables me to feel like an individual, how it puts my destiny, in my hands. It makes me think of a utopian society in a way, like a world without religion would be without a large percent of the violence, hate, rebellion, murder, and other horrible things it now contains. Although, i am a big believer that without evil, there can be no good.Taking that into account, its time to move on to religion.
Religion: What can i say, its a nice thought. Although i have a feeling that may be all religion is, a thought. Starting with heaven, lets assume everything is true about the christian faith. I am not going to go into islam, hindu, judaism, or any other now, but i am open to conversation. Heaven seems like fun. All the good people hangin out, just relaxin, enjoying good wholesome family love and enjoyment. But then there's that whole hell thing, which personally i loathe the idea of. Hell seems more like half delusion, half bedtime story to scare you into paying a tithe, or being extra generous in the collection plate. But hey, I'm a good person, i love my family, and it would sure be nice to get to be with them forever.
So I'm stuck i guess. I need some third party opinions here, or its back to being a soldier without an army. On a side note, i want you to take into account the possibility of america going under, and realizing that being on the good side of a big church, with big money, land, and power may be a good thing.
- 34 Replies
there is no point of doing anything in this life besides enjoyment.
The points are those we make our self.
in which case, i wouldn't care about knowledge, or spirituality, or my family, because nothing would happen when i die.
Does the ultimate fate of something really lessen it's value in the here and now? Let's take someone buying a brand new car for the first time as an example. That car has value, it's meaningful to the person who is buying it. Does the fact that one day that car will be a useless pile of rusting scrap change it's value and make it meaning less at the moment it's being bought, or does it still hold the same value and meaning?
Also thing not lasting forever can even give more meaning. As it makes each moment worth cherishing, because they won't be around forever.
wrong, i believe in something greater than all of this, something that makes it worth something.
Actually, something that makes everything worth NOTHING. What does your life amount to, if you live for death? What of all the people you helped? Completely pointless. All the friends you made? Pointless. Your entire life is pointless if you are simply living to die, everything that you had done would have not helped at all. If you were correct, then it would be beneficial to kill yourself, or live dangerously enough to die in a reasonably short amount of time, in order to get to this "something better" that you wish for. Instead of giving food, you should shoot the poor, to end there suffering and get them into paradise. In fact, if you where correct, it would be a great thing to kill everyone who would get into your heaven. You wouldn't cry when one of your allies died. Life would not only be worthless, it would be a burden. Good thing you are not correct.
if there is nothing after this, there is no point of doing anything in this life besides enjoyment.
What of the legacy you left behind? Your family, friends, and community can benefit immensely from you. I personally hope to leave a treasure of scientific research and insight before I die, as well as a kid or two. Isn't that enough? And, may I ask, what is the point if you where correct? Apparently, your point in life is to die.
in which case, i wouldn't care about knowledge, or spirituality, or my family, because nothing would happen when i die.
"Spirituality" is useless of course, but your family and knowledge are the continuation of yourself. Feel free to make your own "urpose", as many atheist have done.
i am weighing my options, and it is people like you that force atheism on people, that give other atheists a bad name.
..."Force atheism"? More like using rationality in a debate, which is actually considered a beneficial trait. Try it some time.
On a side note, i want you to take into account the possibility of america going under, and realizing that being on the good side of a big church, with big money, land, and power may be a good thing.
That's kinda pathetic. Never bend down to power. Always stand for what you truly belief. And that is how change happens.
Heaven seems like fun. All the good people hangin out, just relaxin, enjoying good wholesome family love and enjoyment.
While you look at the poor people getting burned down in hell because of their belief. We all love a little torture show, don't we?
, lets assume everything is true about the christian faith.
Let's assume everything isn't true. You wasted your only life praying and wasting your time on something that, in the end, didn't exist. You could of lived your life like you really wanted it, but religion forced you not to. And for what? Nothing. Would suck, wouldn't it?
i am a big believer that without evil, there can be no good.
Are you sure? Could you support your claims?
wrong, i believe in something greater than all of this, something that makes it worth something. if there is nothing after this, there is no point of doing anything in this life besides enjoyment. in which case, i wouldn't care about knowledge, or spirituality, or my family, because nothing would happen when i die. i am weighing my options, and it is people like you that force atheism on people, that give other atheists a bad name.
Lots of humans want to feel "special". Like they are something. Why? Can't you people accept that we are less then a grain of sand in nature and that nature doesn't really care about human life? And yes, life is just for enjoyment, but isn't knowledge and family part of enjoyment?
Actually, with the way the lawsuits are going, the pope might want to start eating some crow pie least Vatican city gets seized to pay off the families of the boys they helped ****.
I bet with a few modifications the Vatican would make a real awesome natural history and art museum.
And, may I ask, what is the point if you where correct? Apparently, your point in life is to die.
to go , on. if i die, and thats it, what the hell do i care if anyone benefits from anything i did. realistically, i would feel nothing, so, why do it. you saying, that i will die knowing i benefited the world, is useless. i wouldn't die knowing anything. i would just, die.
We are not forcing atheism, we are just saying, we are more then willing to justify our lack of belief, it's not our fault your belief in a jewish lich is easily ridiculed and dissmissed for being ridiculous.
sounds just like what the churches that you guys are always whining about say. weird..... and um, what was the jewish thing about? im not jewish, im not anything, so um, care to elaborate on that one?
That's kinda pathetic. Never bend down to power. Always stand for what you truly belief. And that is how change happens.
yet again, if it did happen, then we could see who would be pathetic against an army of millions. I'm all for standing up for what i believe in, but there's a time to pick your battles so to speak, its called being an adult.
While you look at the poor people getting burned down in hell because of their belief. We all love a little torture show, don't we?
huh? read into it whatever you want, put words in my mouth, whatever, if your only argument is to claim i said things i didn't, then i have nothing to say to you.
Let's assume everything isn't true. You wasted your only life praying and wasting your time on something that, in the end, didn't exist. You could of lived your life like you really wanted it, but religion forced you not to. And for what? Nothing. Would suck, wouldn't it?
is that how you debate?, i say why, and you say why not. the point was to put yourself into an open state of mind, and to think of all POSSIBILITIES, there is a possibility that nothing that you think you know is right at all, a slim chance, but a chance none the less.
Are you sure? Could you support your claims?
how do you judge good? if everyone was super nice to eachother, then it wouldn't be nice anymore, it would be normal, its like, you can't have happiness without sadness, because to be happy, you need something to measure it against. understand?
Actually, with the way the lawsuits are going, the pope might want to start eating some crow pie least Vatican city gets seized to pay off the families of the boys they helped ****.
do agree, catholics are on my **** list.
Lots of humans want to feel "special". Like they are something. Why? Can't you people accept that we are less then a grain of sand in nature and that nature doesn't really care about human life? And yes, life is just for enjoyment, but isn't knowledge and family part of enjoyment?
for some. i love myself some calculus. but the only reason i learned it, is to take care of my family, i didn't learn it for fun. if this life had no meaning, what would compel me to do anything short of sit on my *** and smoke heroin until i died, besides prison of course, **** that.
I bet with a few modifications the Vatican would make a real awesome natural history and art museum.
can you imagine. i just hope what happened in 2012 doesn't happen to it. so much architecture and art lost.
in closing, why all the hate? all i wanted was the opinion of different walks of life, not 20 replies from atheists telling me that religion sucks, there are enough of those threads i think.
to go , on. if i die, and thats it, what the hell do i care if anyone benefits from anything i did.
The people who are still alive? You, while you are on your death bed? Your children, their children, their children, and who ever you benefited would all care.
realistically, i would feel nothing, so, why do it. you saying, that i will die knowing i benefited the world, is useless. i wouldn't die knowing anything. i would just, die.
And? It wouldn't benefit you, of course, it wouldn't make you feel worm and fuzzy, or any of those idiotic selfish reasons that you seem to be after. Think of it like a book, if you can make a good, full book, then it doesn't matter if it ends.
sounds just like what the churches that you guys are always whining about say. weird..... and um, what was the jewish thing about? im not jewish, im not anything, so um, care to elaborate on that one?
A lich is a necromancer who revived himself, aka Jesus, or that is what it sounds like to me. And the major difference is that Atheism "targets" non vulnerable people such as students in a seminar while Christians target the mentally vulnerable such as children, prison inmates, and the poor.
yet again, if it did happen, then we could see who would be pathetic against an army of millions. I'm all for standing up for what i believe in, but there's a time to pick your battles so to speak, its called being an adult.
What is the quote again? Something like "Better a free man in the grave than living as a puppet or a slave"? "Live free or die"? There are a hundred quotes that basically state a life under that kind of power would be worthless.
is that how you debate?, i say why, and you say why not. the point was to put yourself into an open state of mind, and to think of all POSSIBILITIES, there is a possibility that nothing that you think you know is right at all, a slim chance, but a chance none the less.
There is also a possibility that the world was created by Giant Ninja Stouts, but that holds equal credibility to your god, which is none. Don't dismiss the Stouts, that would be closed minded of you.
for some. i love myself some calculus. but the only reason i learned it, is to take care of my family, i didn't learn it for fun. if this life had no meaning, what would compel me to do anything short of sit on my *** and smoke heroin until i died, besides prison of course, **** that.
And what would be the point of that life? And my I ask what is your purpose now? Your aiming to die, and go to a magical palace with a Jewish sky faerie, so why not just "sit on your *** and smoke heroin until you die"? Your god would still let you in with open arms according to your own theology, so if it is somehow a logical thing to do then why are you not doing it at this moment?
in closing, why all the hate? all i wanted was the opinion of different walks of life, not 20 replies from atheists telling me that religion sucks, there are enough of those threads i think.
Your religion states that a good 40% of the world will be tortured forever by your magical being, causes several terrorist attacks amounting in millions of deaths, and generally poisons society. How does that religion not suck?
The people who are still alive? You, while you are on your death bed? Your children, their children, their children, and who ever you benefited would all care.
sure, they would care, but how could i if i was dead.
And? It wouldn't benefit you, of course, it wouldn't make you feel worm and fuzzy, or any of those idiotic selfish reasons that you seem to be after. Think of it like a book, if you can make a good, full book, then it doesn't matter if it ends.
i think your missing my point. if i choose atheism ,when i die nothing happens, then i will have lived my life for others. if i choose religion, when i die, nothing happens, and i lived my life for others. either way, i benefit others, and i die and go on to nothing. what's the difference, except with religion, at least i get to think i get to go on to something better.
A lich is a necromancer who revived himself, aka Jesus, or that is what it sounds like to me. And the major difference is that Atheism "targets" non vulnerable people such as students in a seminar while Christians target the mentally vulnerable such as children, prison inmates, and the poor.
right right, i remember now, from morrowind. anyway, college kids go with whats popular. we all know that. hipsters and hippies, and stoners and alcoholics, and party people, and jocks, and cheerleaders. of all the kids in college, i would bet that maybe 5% could even comprehend what your saying. now, i think we've gotten off on the wrong foot, because you seem to think that i'm religious. quite the contrary, i believe in no specific god, or deity. i just want some insight, because from what ive seen, atheists are angry, rebellious, and shadow dwelling protesters. on the other hand, the majority of church goers are happy, have good families, with good morals, and a sense of home. all i wanted, was to hear the rational of both sides.
What is the quote again? Something like "Better a free man in the grave than living as a puppet or a slave"? "Live free or die"? There are a hundred quotes that basically state a life under that kind of power would be worthless.
uh huh, and being dead is somehow a better alternative. besides, to be in a church doesn't mean being a slave, or a puppet. if i have to say i believe to save my family if the time comes, i will do it.
There is also a possibility that the world was created by Giant Ninja Stouts, but that holds equal credibility to your god, which is none. Don't dismiss the Stouts, that would be closed minded of you.
absolutely correct, and i didn't dismiss them. this is my point here, saying finite things may seem like a good way to go. but as you point out, there is a possibility for anything. being a man of logic, and truth, you would have to admit, that you yourself could be wrong in your belief as well as every other human on earth. all im saying, is if you don't believe them, and you know what you know is correct, then why worry about it at all.
And what would be the point of that life? And my I ask what is your purpose now? Your aiming to die, and go to a magical palace with a Jewish sky faerie, so why not just "sit on your *** and smoke heroin until you die"? Your god would still let you in with open arms according to your own theology, so if it is somehow a logical thing to do then why are you not doing it at this moment?
i must have worded that one incorrectly or something. are you agreeing that there is no purpose? or are you simply trying to undermine what i have said by sarcastically agreeing with me. either way, i don't think i got the message through. i meant, in simpler terms, that if there is no rhyme or reason to this life, then why do i feel compelled to take care of my family. if nothing i do counts for anything, on a bigger scale, then why does anybody do anything?
Your religion states that a good 40% of the world will be tortured forever by your magical being, causes several terrorist attacks amounting in millions of deaths, and generally poisons society. How does that religion not suck?
are you referring to judaism or islamic? i don't have a religion, but i'm not going to blame an entire religion for the actions of extremists. just as i don't blame all black people for the couple of wannabe gangsters making ***** out of them selves.
also, 314d1, most of the quotes and rebuttals i used in my previous post were directed at other people. but i do appreciate your direct approach and your enthusiasm in trying to help me figure out which walk of life if any is best for me and my family.
i think your missing my point. if i choose atheism ,when i die nothing happens, then i will have lived my life for others. if i choose religion, when i die, nothing happens, and i lived my life for others. either way, i benefit others, and i die and go on to nothing. what's the difference, except with religion, at least i get to think i get to go on to something better.
It sounds like you are looking for something that will make you feel good, and if that is the case then pick whatever does that. For some, like me, feeling good comes from knowledge and understanding. I am happy and comfortable with learning and understanding everything I can, even when that means changing my position. This is why I went from a devout Christian to being an atheist.
Others find that they gain the most from believing in something that tells them that there is a higher purpose to their existence. They are warmed by the idea of a celestial Club Med where everyone gets to go after they get done with this life. Honestly this IS an appealing idea, and much more comforting than the most likely scenario.
Either way the decision is yours. You seem like a rather intelligent person and are fully capable of making up your own mind.
i just want some insight, because from what ive seen, atheists are angry, rebellious, and shadow dwelling protesters. on the other hand, the majority of church goers are happy, have good families, with good morals, and a sense of home. all i wanted, was to hear the rational of both sides.
I think you either haven't met enough atheists, or know a bunch of people who you don't realize are atheists. The overwhelming majority whom I know and associate with are very happy people with great families, good jobs, and live kind and loving lives.
Sure, many atheists (especially on the internet) come off rather angry. A lot of that seems to stem from all the fundamentalist religious folks telling us all sorts of horrible things are going to happen to us and that we are horrible people simply because we want some evidence before we buy their story. Listen to that long enough and certainly some are bound to become defensive.
i meant, in simpler terms, that if there is no rhyme or reason to this life, then why do i feel compelled to take care of my family. if nothing i do counts for anything, on a bigger scale, then why does anybody do anything?
There IS rhyme and reason to life, it's just that YOU have to give it to it. Life has no intrinsic, ultimate reason. It just is. We have evolved and developed certain drives and behaviors because they are beneficial or detrimental, as the case may be. Why does the bee make honey? Why do plants grow toward sunlight? Why do dogs chase cars? These questions are as pertinent as any you've asked, and the answers are all similar. Simply because that's the way it is.
Everything has developed a system of what works for it and what doesn't, and it strives for those things that are beneficial and attempts to avoid those things that are bad, all while searching for comfort and a means to pass on genetic information. That, ultimately, is the meaning of it all, and no religion or lack thereof is able to fundamentally alter that.
is that how you debate?, i say why, and you say why not. the point was to put yourself into an open state of mind, and to think of all POSSIBILITIES, there is a possibility that nothing that you think you know is right at all, a slim chance, but a chance none the less.
The probability of having nothing (or something unknown) is more likely then having the exact god of the religion you want to join.
how do you judge good? if everyone was super nice to eachother, then it wouldn't be nice anymore, it would be normal, its like, you can't have happiness without sadness, because to be happy, you need something to measure it against. understand?
If I do not give money to charity, does that mean I'm a bad person? No. If I don't hold the door for somebody, does that make me a bad person? If I don't help someone to pick up their stuff, am I a bad person? No. Am I a good person? No. I am neutral. And the stuff you do that are more then neutral are good.
huh? read into it whatever you want, put words in my mouth, whatever, if your only argument is to claim i said things i didn't, then i have nothing to say to you.
It is part of being in heaven.
yet again, if it did happen, then we could see who would be pathetic against an army of millions. I'm all for standing up for what i believe in, but there's a time to pick your battles so to speak, its called being an adult.
This makes as much sense as encouraging the Nazi occupation in France and hating on the French resistance.
for some. i love myself some calculus. but the only reason i learned it, is to take care of my family, i didn't learn it for fun. if this life had no meaning, what would compel me to do anything short of sit on my *** and smoke heroin until i died, besides prison of course, **** that.
Knowledge is not just the raw math that you learn in School or the scientific theories that you learn in your physics class. It is anything that you learn or experience. And yes, you could lie on your *** and "smoke" heroin (as far as you can smoke heroin) until you die. No god will punish you. You will just lose your house, your money, respect from others and your job. And then you will become depressed and your life will suck. This little thing called "emotions" let us actually care about stuff or people.
wrong, i believe in something greater than all of this, something that makes it worth something. if there is nothing after this, there is no point of doing anything in this life besides enjoyment. in which case, i wouldn't care about knowledge, or spirituality, or my family, because nothing would happen when i die. i am weighing my options, and it is people like you that force atheism on people, that give other atheists a bad name
In that case, flip a coin. Don't go by what it comes up as, but by your reaction to it. If this doesn't sound like a good plan to you, try religion for a while and see how you like it. For a long while, I was in the same boat that you're in now.
sure, they would care, but how could i if i was dead.
You couldn't. But does that matter?
i think your missing my point. if i choose atheism ,when i die nothing happens, then i will have lived my life for others. if i choose religion, when i die, nothing happens, and i lived my life for others. either way, i benefit others, and i die and go on to nothing. what's the difference, except with religion, at least i get to think i get to go on to something better.
So what is better - saying "After school I will go get ice cream" even though you know you probably won't get ice cream, or simply not pretending that you will get ice cream at all? It is true that you are not getting into a paradise once you die- so why fool yourself into thinking you do?
right right, i remember now, from morrowind. anyway, college kids go with whats popular. we all know that. hipsters and hippies, and stoners and alcoholics, and party people, and jocks, and cheerleaders. of all the kids in college, i would bet that maybe 5% could even comprehend what your saying. now, i think we've gotten off on the wrong foot, because you seem to think that i'm religious. quite the contrary, i believe in no specific god, or deity. i just want some insight, because from what ive seen, atheists are angry, rebellious, and shadow dwelling protesters. on the other hand, the majority of church goers are happy, have good families, with good morals, and a sense of home. all i wanted, was to hear the rational of both sides.
It doesn't matter if you are religious or not, now does it? So is science a trend now? Atheism seminars, it seems to me, are closer to physics seminars, not any of the "trends" as you call them. Now could you tell me what context you are viewing both these "Church goers" and atheist in? You can expect the Atheists to be "Angry, rebellious, shadow dwelling protesters" if it is a protest of some kind or another form of meeting formed around protesting or political ideas. Most of the time atheist an "church goers" are similar, you could probably not tell them apart 90% of the time. If you want to see some "Angry, rebellious, shadow dwelling protesters" or whatever as christians, than go to a Christian rally or protest of some sort and you will see what you wish.
uh huh, and being dead is somehow a better alternative. besides, to be in a church doesn't mean being a slave, or a puppet. if i have to say i believe to save my family if the time comes, i will do it.
I was referring to Yahweh if he existed. An evil slave driving puppet master if I ever did see one.
absolutely correct, and i didn't dismiss them. this is my point here, saying finite things may seem like a good way to go. but as you point out, there is a possibility for anything. being a man of logic, and truth, you would have to admit, that you yourself could be wrong in your belief as well as every other human on earth. all im saying, is if you don't believe them, and you know what you know is correct, then why worry about it at all.
I believe the term lex parsimoniae would be correctly used here, no? The one that makes the fewest assumptions - the ones based on science - win out. For example, for the "Ninja Stout" theory, you would have to make many large assumptions such as "Ninja Stouts do in fact exist as described" and "We are wrong about every piece of science that has ever been presented", both are literally near impossible.
i must have worded that one incorrectly or something. are you agreeing that there is no purpose? or are you simply trying to undermine what i have said by sarcastically agreeing with me. either way, i don't think i got the message through. i meant, in simpler terms, that if there is no rhyme or reason to this life, then why do i feel compelled to take care of my family. if nothing i do counts for anything, on a bigger scale, then why does anybody do anything?
What you do does count for something, just apparently not the things that you want it to count for. If you want the long run of why you feel compelled to take care of your family, you will have to go to another page, I am only going to give the simple explanation of the fact that humans are social animals thus have social urges, parasitically the one to take care of your family. And why would anything you do count if there was a god of some kind? If anything, that would level everything you do completely worthless.
are you referring to judaism or islamic? i don't have a religion, but i'm not going to blame an entire religion for the actions of extremists. just as i don't blame all black people for the couple of wannabe gangsters making ***** out of them selves.
Religion in general, except Judaism doesn't have the "Burning in hell" part, which is always nice. And you do realize that it isn't "extremist" who are doing this? Take the Crusades. Where all the knights "Extremist"? I find that unlikely, it is more likely they were moderates kicked into gear by a charismatic leader holding a bible.
And another paraphrased quote "Good people do good things and bad people do bad things. But for a good person to do bad things, that takes religion"
also, 314d1, most of the quotes and rebuttals i used in my previous post were directed at other people. but i do appreciate your direct approach and your enthusiasm in trying to help me figure out which walk of life if any is best for me and my family.
I don't see how your family is affected by this, though pretty much all people reply to every part of your quote around here...
By the way, what religion are you again? I assumed you are a christian, do to the little I read (Wish I could have read more, but my last post was late at night waiting for resources to be transferred), but you seem to be a deist, agnostic, or theist looking for a religion now...
If I do not give money to charity, does that mean I'm a bad person? No. If I don't hold the door for somebody, does that make me a bad person? If I don't help someone to pick up their stuff, am I a bad person? No. Am I a good person? No. I am neutral. And the stuff you do that are more then neutral are good.
exactly what i was saying? without evil, there can't be good. therefore everyone and everything would be neutral.
You couldn't. But does that matter?
if it was all i had to make me want to do it, then yes, it does matter.
So what is better - saying "After school I will go get ice cream" even though you know you probably won't get ice cream, or simply not pretending that you will get ice cream at all?
yes? would you rather know that your going to die tomorrow, or have it happen all of the sudden, so it doesn't ruin the hours preceding?
So is science a trend now?
no, atheism is. being an atheist doesn't make you a scientist.
I believe the term lex parsimoniae would be correctly used here, no? The one that makes the fewest assumptions - the ones based on science - win out. For example, for the "Ninja Stout" theory, you would have to make many large assumptions such as "Ninja Stouts do in fact exist as described" and "We are wrong about every piece of science that has ever been presented", both are literally near impossible.
near impossible, not impossible. in other words, you have no proof that religion is wrong, just as they have no proof that they are right. a god not being needed is not a reason that he can't exist.
Religion in general, except Judaism doesn't have the "Burning in hell" part, which is always nice. And you do realize that it isn't "extremist" who are doing this? Take the Crusades. Where all the knights "Extremist"? I find that unlikely, it is more likely they were moderates kicked into gear by a charismatic leader holding a bible.
besides the fact that the crusades were waged between 1095 and 1291, over 700 years ago, the rules of life were different back then. they didn't know any better, and did not have the governments that we have today that interferes. i am referring to modern extremists. you know, the blowing up buildings, and cars, and beheading people on camera kind. and yes, modern terrorists, are extremists.
And another paraphrased quote "Good people do good things and bad people do bad things. But for a good person to do bad things, that takes religion"
wouldn't that make good people that do bad things bad people? this is a biased quote. good people that are atheist do bad things to. besides, i know a lot of both christian and atheist that do both good and bad things. yet again the only difference between them, is faith.
I don't see how your family is affected by this, though pretty much all people reply to every part of your quote around here...
not sure what the second part meant, but the first part is easily answered. i am married, with two daughters. and everything that me and my wife do is discussed thoroughly period. every discussion and choice is a family decision.
By the way, what religion are you again? I assumed you are a christian, do to the little I read (Wish I could have read more, but my last post was late at night waiting for resources to be transferred), but you seem to be a deist, agnostic, or theist looking for a religion now...
no religious denomination. i do believe in something bigger. perhaps there isn't a name for it, or even a form, maybe even not a personality. but i think that everything works too well for this to all be some sort of coincidence. to me, science only proves that whatever designed all of this, is far greater than we could ever comprehend.
God doesn't make the sunrise, it's gravitational attraction.
Here I was thinking that it was the rotation of the Earth...silly me.
I was joking :P
Although in the direct sense it's due to the earth's rotation, the gravitation is what's causing the cause
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