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Forums → WEPR → Is religion bad?
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I was just about to go to sleep so I was taking my nightly dump where I do a lot of reflecting.
I started a thread a couple days ago called about atheism and it started a debate. I myself am a die hard atheist but I was just wondering is religion even all that bad?
I mean maybe some people just need that cushion, maybe they cant accept their fates? I would like to hear from you why religion is so bad. Is it halting progression? Is it dumbing us down, what do you have to say?
- 296 Replies
You're slowly pacing this into a flamewar. Bring more content of your own (as in what YOU say) to the discussion to carry from this otherwise you'll likely only pull hate.
Crap, sorry for that.
Time for the theologian to step in.
1) On the subject of priests succumbing to pedophilia, none of you who have made that point have mentioned the key factor that indicates who is most likely to be a pedophile. Not surprising, since it kills your argument.
I'll save you some time. First off, most research has been conducted with convicted pedophiles or confessing pedophiles who seek help, which makes the data slightly suspect. That being said, the overwhelming majority of pedophiles (75% or more) are married men and women, who molest children in their immediate neighborhoods.
Supporting this hypothesis, the overwhelming majority of pedophile priests comes from Protestant factions that allow their ministers/priests/etc. to marry. I can think of only one priest who was a Roman Catholic (the original Christian faction), and he was immediately excommunicated and stripped of his ordination.
Furthermore, the Roman Catholic church has drastically increased requirements for who is and is not allowed to go to seminary, and from there to the priesthood. Even before you are considered, you must undergo an intense, full-spectrum physical and psychological exam, and you must take periodic psychological exams for the rest of your life, all carried out by secularly-licensed physicians and psychologists. Also, you are not allowed into seminary if you have been convicted of any crime, no matter how small; even being convicted of stealing $50 or $100 is enough to block you out for life.
BTW, these requirements are for Roman Catholics; I can't speak for Protestants.
2) On the subject of Old vs. New Testament;
Both the Old and the New Testament are required, because despite claims to the contrary, both the Old and New Testaments have the same theme; God, Our Father, trying to lead us, His Children, into transcendence and salvation. Both the Old and New Testaments have areas where God steps aside and allows us to suffer the consequences of our failures, and areas where he welcomes us back into his loving arms with infinite love and forgiveness.
Old Testament (Suffering)
Allowing the Israelites to wander in the desert for 40 years after they, in essence, told God to f*ck off.
Allowing Joshua to be sold into slavery by his brothers.
Old Testament (Love and Forgiveness)
Allowing the Israelites to come into the Promised Land after they repented their wicked ways.
Allowing Joshua to become the Vizier of Egypt, so that he was in a perfect position to guard Egypt against the seven years of famine.
New Testament (Suffering)
Jesus trashing the Temple of Jerusalem after the high priests turned it into a place of lies, crime, and debauchery.
The apostle Saul being physically blinded by his sin after the murder and persecution of hundreds of Christians.
New Testament (Love and Forgiveness)
Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, even when God would have saved him from that death if Jesus had asked for it.
The apostle Saul, who has now taken the name Paul, being cured of his blindness.
There are thousands of examples on both sides in the Bible, but there is one theme that is constant throughout; God is our Father, trying to guide His Children to salvation.
Sometimes we fail, and our foolishness brings suffering upon us. Sometimes vicious, cruel brothers and sisters attack and cripple and murder us for personal satisfaction. Sometimes, we repent and overcome our failures, and gain truly awesome peace and love for our efforts. Sometimes, kind and loving brothers and sisters give us infinite love and support, for no greater reason than because they can.
3) On the subject of Justice;
There is a very important reason Jesus said, "Give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God". Jesus is advocating a very explicit separation of Church and State, and while the two would be one and the same in a perfect world, this tainted world we live in requires that some compromises must be made, like the need for a standing army, and punishing penalties for breaking the law.
The key factor that must be examined whenever a person or group of people calls for "Justice" is this; what are you actually looking for?
In my experience, there are three kinds of "Calls for Justice"
a) "We must "heal this criminal in the most beneficial way possible. If the criminal can be rehabilitated, do it-end of story. If not, place the criminal in the most beneficial restriction possible. This might be anything from a redemptionist work gang, for hard-core criminals, or an asylum, for deranged, mentally damaged unfortunates. If you must kill or permanently imprison the criminal, that is a failure on your part, not theirs".
b) "Punish the criminal, because healing and rehabilitation are too much effort, and I can't be bothered to do it".
c) "Destroy the criminal, because forcing this person to suffer as much as humanly possible satisfies me more than actually trying to deal with the problem and heal the damage".
As always, the actual form of "Justice" that is handed out depends a great deal on the people directly involved at the time.
This is the meaning behind Jesus' famous line; Oftentimes the restrictions of this tainted world and these tainted children requires a harsher form of justice than God would prefer. We need secular laws to accommodate these situations. This divide, though necessary, poses a danger to our souls, and we must be careful to make sure that our decisions in this world are guided by the love and forgiveness and wisdom of God and Heaven as much as possible.
What would be used to stoke the proverbial flames of a war?
i know someone else already hit this point but to add to it there is economy which is now well confused with power and nationalism where people are proud of there history and would die to defend it before they give up.
I can think of only one priest who was a Roman Catholic (the original Christian faction), and he was immediately excommunicated and stripped of his ordination.
Actually the Pope protected the pedophiles in the church. Instead of excommunication they just got reassigned.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/201003/the-pope-protects-pedophiles
There has also definitely been more than one in the Catholic Church.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3872499.stm
2000 Years of Pedophile Priests
Both the Old and the New Testament are required, because despite claims to the contrary, both the Old and New Testaments have the same theme; God, Our Father, trying to lead us, His Children, into transcendence and salvation.
Let's not forget kill us in genocidal and often painful ways, lying to us, setting us up to fail, and everyone's favorite eternal torment and suffering.
Old Testament (Suffering)
Allowing the Israelites to wander in the desert for 40 years after they, in essence, told God to f*ck off.
Looks like all they did was not rest on the Sabbath and even then it was only some of them.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+16&version=NIV
We have to again ignore how a test (16:4 In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions.) by an all knowing being is completely pointless since he would already know the results. But I guess this isn't about arguing how ridiculous the Bible can be.
It would seem according to Exodus 17:1 that whole wandering around in the desert was as God commanded. So they were doing what he told them to do the whole time.
Exodus 17:1 (NIV)
The whole Israelite community set out from the Desert of Sin, traveling from place to place as the LORD commanded. They camped at Rephidim, but there was no water for the people to drink.
Really I'm not seeing them telling God in any sense to take his bread and shove it.
Old Testament (Love and Forgiveness)
Allowing the Israelites to come into the Promised Land after they repented their wicked ways.
How about the loving and forgiving part where he screws with Lot just to win a bet with the Devil? Or that loving and forgiving genocide flood. Since the Flood didn't work out as planned how about the loving and forgiving genocide of two EVIL cities (you know the ones that either had 0 population growth or had evil babies)?
New Testament (Suffering)
Jesus trashing the Temple of Jerusalem after the high priests turned it into a place of lies, crime, and debauchery.
Pretty sure Jesus called it a market since people were there selling stuff. While I suppose it's possible those things like lies, crime and debauchery took place in a market I don't really see them mentioned.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%202&version=NIV
On an interesting side note, if Jesus was actually a historical figure and not just a construct this part is considered to be a likely real event. From the historical perspective it's thought this was done intentionally so that he would get himself arrested and become a martyr.
New Testament (Love and Forgiveness)
Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, even when God would have saved him from that death if Jesus had asked for it.
I still fail to see how a human sacrifice can be in any way regarded as loving and forgiving.
Sometimes we fail, and our foolishness brings suffering upon us.
And sometimes it's to win a bet...
And sometimes it's to win a bet...
Well, my bet/gamble worked. At least we've started something resembling reasonable debate
First, to admit the points where my facts were genuinely wrong, or that I failed to address in some other way:
You caught me on the number of Roman Catholic priests who were involved in pedophilia. Although I specifically said "...that I remember", I should have done more research on that before using it in an argument. My bad.
At this moment, I do not have a counter for Lot. It is my belief that God allows bad things to happen because the suffering of and adaptation to those bad things teaches us humans something we need to know. My interpretation of that would seem to support your statement that God was just...
screwing with Lot just to win a bet with the Devil. However, I have a couple of half-formed ideas to address that point, so if you can be patient, I'd love to continue that line of thought.
Moving on...
On the subject of "tests"...
We have to again ignore how a test (16:4 In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions.) by an all knowing being is completely pointless since he would already know the results.
God has never tested anyone because God doesn't know what will happen. The entire purpose of these various "tests" was to teach the humans involved something they needed to know. Furthermore, God doesn't actually have to "do" anything-simple human failure is more than enough explanation for the
Let's not forget kill us in genocidal and often painful ways, lying to us, setting us up to fail, and everyone's favorite eternal torment and suffering..
Unless I'm completely misreading your text, I'm detecting a fair amount of personal suffering at the hands of "God-fearing folk" on your end. I'd like some confirmation of that (a simple yes or no is sufficient) because I rarely meet anyone who has a legitimate grievance against us Christians, and that kind of complaint has put me in my place more than once.
But we're getting off topic, so...
My point is, human failures like greed and anger and simple incompetence are more than enough to inflict massive suffering on others. I severely doubt that, say, the Roman salting of Carthage was divinely influenced by God or Satan. That begs the question of why the Bible lists such tragedies as divinely influenced, especially the impersonal ones like the Great Flood. My belief is that, once again, God did not actually cause that flood. He only warned Noah that it was coming, and he even told Noah to go and tell everyone else to prepare for it. Needless to say, everyone ignored him, so Noah and his family survived while others did not.
A good modern parallel is the recent flooding in Thailand. A large number of the people who survived were people who had been victims of floods before, and knew how to save themselves from the worst effects. A number of people who died were people who were given advice from those who had survived previous floods, but blew them off for one reason or another. Simple human error and secular physical laws determined the rest. Did God send this flood to Thailand? No, he didn't.
However, there are quite a few odd occurrences in the Bible that I believe are divinely influenced. A good example is the parting of the Red Sea.
Exodus 14:21-"Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea. The Lord drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night, and turned the sea into dry land; and the waves were parted."
This was actually explored in an episode of the Discovery Channel, and the physical theory is quite sound-the investigator used an industrial leaf blower to clear an inch of water off of a path of pebbles, and kept it clear for the duration of the blowing wind.
Give that, what purely secular, physical force can create enough tightly-controlled wind to part an entire sea's worth of water, down to the seafloor, keep it there for the duration of the Israelite crossing, and cease just as the Pharaoh's army is crossing, all w/o pulverizing the people in the area of effect and/or permanently damaging/destroying the landscape?
On the subject of that whole 40 years in the desert....
You haven't read far enough into that story. Keep going, and you'll see what I'm talking about when I say they told God to shove it.
On the subject of Jesus in the Temple...
This is one of those things that requires a deep, esoteric knowledge of the culture at the time. My own knowledge is a bit shaky, so you are free to investigate for yourself.
A large part of the crime I mentioned was the buying and selling of indulgences in the temple itself, as well as a number of related rule-twisting and shady dealings on the side.
Specifically, the priests and scribes basically made it a point to say "Our cows/chickens/sheep are better/more special than yours. Your sacrifice is not acceptable if you do not give the best possible, and lucky for you, we will sell you a cow/chicken/sheep for the low, low price of..."
In essence, it was a cripplingly effective exercise in snake oil salesmanship, backed up by "Holy Authority".
On the subject of Jesus' martyrdom...
Jesus' capture, trials, and execution were carried out in the space of around 24 hours. If you take the time to actually chart the events, it quickly amounts to a mind-boggling amount of effort and resources on the part of the high priests who rushed Jesus' execution through the red tape. These high priests had dealt with many "heretics" before; Jesus was obviously something special for them to go this far and fast.
Furthermore, you are correct; Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary....
IF you assume he was purely human.
We Christians believe that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary on a divine level, because the human race is so badly tainted, so vile, that we, as a group, fully deserve any punishment that God chooses to visit upon us. The fact that he has not chosen to do so is because Jesus died on the cross for us, essentially telling God that we are worthy of His Love and Forgiveness.
This is not something entirely new, either. There are several other places in the Bible where HUMANS told God the same thing. The difference with Jesus is that Jesus is the Son of God, of His own divine essence. Jesus' death on the cross should not have been necessary at all, but our human failure made it so if we humans were to have any chance at redemption and salvation.
THAT is why Jesus' crucifixion is considered the ultimate act of love. He could have easily escaped that death, but Jesus chose not to so that we humans might have a chance at Heaven.
NinjaDork I would really like to reply point for point with everything here, but unfortunately I need to allocate my time in other ways right now. So let me see if I can just pick a few select things.
God has never tested anyone because God doesn't know what will happen. The entire purpose of these various "tests" was to teach the humans involved something they needed to know. Furthermore, God doesn't actually have to "do" anything-simple human failure is more than enough explanation for the
That explanation doesn't really make any sense since he specifically said he was doing to find out if they would follow his instructions in that particular example.
Unless I'm completely misreading your text, I'm detecting a fair amount of personal suffering at the hands of "God-fearing folk" on your end. I'd like some confirmation of that (a simple yes or no is sufficient) because I rarely meet anyone who has a legitimate grievance against us Christians, and that kind of complaint has put me in my place more than once.
Personally I've had both good and bad experiences with God-fearing folk".
That begs the question of why the Bible lists such tragedies as divinely influenced, especially the impersonal ones like the Great Flood. My belief is that, once again, God did not actually cause that flood. He only warned Noah that it was coming, and he even told Noah to go and tell everyone else to prepare for it. Needless to say, everyone ignored him, so Noah and his family survived while others did not.
The problem here is God specifically says he was doing it to wipe out all those people and the entire planet.
Genesis 6:13 (NIV)
So God said to Noah, âI am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
Specifically, the priests and scribes basically made it a point to say "Our cows/chickens/sheep are better/more special than yours. Your sacrifice is not acceptable if you do not give the best possible, and lucky for you, we will sell you a cow/chicken/sheep for the low, low price of..."
You know this sounds like how many churches today are.
In fact here's one example. Peter Popoff's Miracle Spring Water
IF you assume he was purely human.
We Christians believe that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary on a divine level, because the human race is so badly tainted, so vile, that we, as a group, fully deserve any punishment that God chooses to visit upon us. The fact that he has not chosen to do so is because Jesus died on the cross for us, essentially telling God that we are worthy of His Love and Forgiveness.
Ignoring the whole issue of having to say sorry for being human...
Jesus being divine doesn't really make any difference in it not making sense. As you have already indicated God is omniscient and would not require human sacrifice to tell him we are worthy or not of his love and forgiveness. But let's say your right here and God did have to require this death, this would only mean God's love is conditional. A condition that is quite horrific.
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