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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,151 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

So basically you take a book where several parts you yourself have discredited and claim that one verse is the basis of why your faith is better than all the others. And can you please explain why God allows these branches and other religions to survive. Until you stop skirting around this issue we can't continue this discussion.
ME discrediting the Bible? You should read this topic better. Why does God allow other branches to exist? Because Him coming and revealing Himself will actually be then end of time, and after that no one could ever change a thing. So He allows us to think for ourselves and find Him. By the way, there are good people in almost all of the Christian branches, and they will certainly be saved regardless of branch.
And can you please just answer me this question. Why does your God exist and the Invisible Pink Unicorn not? What reason is there for your God to exist over Allah?
Since you don't believe in miracles, you will not believe me. IPU hasn't given a single sign of its existance, while God was with Israeli people for 40 years straight, and did not leave them alone even when they have strayed. BTW, Christ resurrected. This alone is the sign of God to be real. About Allah - Mohammed took Old Testament as basis for Quran, therefore this name belongs to the very same God that is my God the Father. I'd rather stop discussing anything with you from now on, unless you will also tell me, how is mass media not brainwashing.

Krishna and stuff belong to the IPU category, there are no miracles that can prove their existance.
I did already, must have gotten buried but I said various greek and roman sources and not the jewish tribes.
Hmm. This topic grows too fast to watch for the entirety of changes. Though I often see some of my questions left unanswered as well. There should be some sources in the Babylonian cunei tables about Jews being under their reign, and there should be sources about at least Paul's case when he got beaten and then went up to Caesar to protect his beliefs. Much, though, could have gone with Nero burning ROMe. I might try a research of this, but I'm by no means a historian.
As for the Catholic church, the reason the Protestant movement occurred was them protesting the church's abuses and granting themselves powers the bible does not endorse.

The sacrament of confession is not mentioned at all in the bible for starters.
About confession - Jn 20:21-23. Explanation is as follows: Christ being God did not need the sinner to profess his sins, since He can see into one's heart. Priests can't directly see into a person's heart, so the profession of one's sins is required to absolution of them. But the priest is acting as a mediator between the confessing sinner and Jesus, who gave them power to abolish sins, and it's His grace which cleans the soul of one attending confession.

About Church abuses - yes indeed, there were abuses with indulgences and crusades at least, currently we claim these abuses as sins, though we can't say anything definite about those who committed such sins - no one is forbidden repentance.
Someone quite aware of what the Bible depicts claiming to see these things? Clearing the Bible could not have had any influence on such visions.
Dodging detected.
When does this happen?
Right before they have been cast away, that's why God promised a savior for people by that time.
The existence of numerous translations, the existence of dozens of omitted gospels...
Did people change the wordings in the canon, at least after 387 when the first solid Church-wide canon was developed? Translations can and should be reviewed of course, and anyway one can always refer to Septuagint and Latin-English dictionary. About omitted gospels - like what? Several of then are of gnostic origin, therefore false, several are altered versions of the four canonical gospels, therefore has to be reviewed (and they were, the result was that the authors made alterations themselves instead of "uncovering" Jesus's words - dispute seems to be open again), several are "infancy gospels" that were assimilated into Church tradition. I am aware that the canon was unstable in the early Church years, however all four Gospels were canon from the start.
God, the deceiver.
(KJV)
What's KJV, first? And second, neither quote from the Bible should be read as a single ripped-off statement. Say, Ezekiel 14:9 spoke about false prophets who did not receive their word from God. 2 Chronicles and 1 Kings spoke the same. Do check the context prior to posting.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,254 posts
Regent

IPU hasn't given a single sign of its existance, while God was with Israeli people for 40 years straight, and did not leave them alone even when they have strayed.

You were taught that he was with them during all this time. How do you know it's true? You can't verify it. That's a pretty poor explanation for god's existance.

Krishna and stuff belong to the IPU category, there are no miracles that can prove their existance.

I'm pretty sure those who believe in Krishna and compagny could list you a good number of miracles they witnessed. What makes yours divine and theirs not?

how is mass media not brainwashing.

It can indeed be used to brainwash, and has been already used to do so. But not all do, and it's difficult to know who you can trust and who not. In general the media's claims can be verified, or probabilised, when most of the other medias independently also state the same.
What with the bible and the church? Many branches that make unverifiable claims, often not in tune with claims of other branches of the same religion. Only problem, if you don't believe those claims, you're the bad one.

What's KJV, first?

Authorized King James Version of the bible.

And second, neither quote from the Bible should be read as a single ripped-off statement. Say, Ezekiel 14:9 spoke about false prophets who did not receive their word from God. 2 Chronicles and 1 Kings spoke the same. Do check the context prior to posting.

Mage! It's time for your context video once more
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

You were taught that he was with them during all this time. How do you know it's true? You can't verify it. That's a pretty poor explanation for god's existance.
Well, the fact of all the local tribes of Palestine were wiped out by Jewish travelling from Egypt, while them be inferior at least in armament, is of significance.
I'm pretty sure those who believe in Krishna and compagny could list you a good number of miracles they witnessed. What makes yours divine and theirs not?
Gimme first, will look and check.
Authorized King James Version of the bible.
OK, just haven't heard this acronym.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,254 posts
Regent

Well, the fact of all the local tribes of Palestine were wiped out by Jewish travelling from Egypt, while them be inferior at least in armament, is of significance.

Ok, that might be significant (although not enough). Where do you have that from?
Gimme first, will look and check.

Go ask them, I don't believe in their miracles either^^
But let's just assume that someone with a chronic disease prayed to Ganesh, and recovered completely after that, meaning it never came back.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Go ask them
Hehe, it's you who have the burden of proof in this case. You are to prove that Vishnu and stuff did make miracles worthy of calling such. Since you dodge, my claim that they are IPUs of different origin stays. Assumption is not enough, as there are several highly documented full-heals that medicine failed to explain, after devout prayers to Jesus. You can read Gloria Polo's issue for example.
Ok, that might be significant (although not enough). Where do you have that from?
Here and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_significant_to_the_Bible
here[quote]
HahiHa
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HahiHa
8,254 posts
Regent

Hehe, it's you who have the burden of proof in this case.

I never said that I wanted to prove they made real miracles. I just wanted to tell you there are other religions also claiming miracles, and that I wanted to know how you can specifically exclude theirs and not yours.
For that Gloria case, if medicine can't explain it, it automatically falls back to god's doing only because she prayed? It seems to me that it is an exception; I mean I'm sure there were tons of cases where a patient died even after real devout prayers. And if doctors can't explain it, doesn't mean it can't be explained medically somehow. We just haven't found out what happened. God's work is only a probable hypothesis here, but you have no direct proof why in this case specifically her prayer were heard and an external force healed her. In my opinion it was the prayer that saved her, that mobilized her forces and in the end she healed 'herself' with the help of the doctors. But I can't back up that opinion so don't ask for reasons, I couldn't answer.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Nomad

why you say "only because"? This thing can't be proven. With Gloria Polo, God said that she will be a testimonial for her own cause in order to convince people that God exists, and more. Indeed some people die when others prayed for their recuperation without meaning to get good for themselves, but the reason beyond this death is often left unknown until the one who prayed arrived at God. I have heard a story about how a mother prayed for life of her son from the time he was a baby, for ~16 years straight, and he lived, grown up but showed the intentions of becoming a burglar or alike lawbreaker. Then an angel appeared to the mother at night and said something like "God wished him to become an angel at His throne, but you prayed so strongly that He allowed your child to live, and watch what has happened." So that mother prayed "Let there be your will" and released the child, he dies shortly afterwards.

It's either awesomely hard or plain impossible to get a rock-solid proof of God doing something for people, since this rock-solidity will force all people to know that there's God and thus allowing them to demand everything off God and succumb to laziness - why doing something if God will do anything?

About Gloria Polo - you might need to read the entire case prior to speaking, some of the documents were linked to from this topic page 86, including her entire testimony.

I never said that I wanted to prove they made real miracles. I just wanted to tell you there are other religions also claiming miracles
Atheists here disregard any evidence of a miracle without any proof. So do I, if I don't get any evidence to prove there were any. So far your argument looks like another "what if" with a false initial statement, which is never an argument.
Avorne
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Avorne
3,087 posts
Nomad
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

I know of this argument. The harm is believing while disregarding others' help. God does act though other people. It's just that those people whom we badly need appear a lot closer if we pray. My wife had a need of a person to talk with once, and she prayed, and a girl sitting three seats behind approached - we're still friends, after more than two years. These are examples of attempting to employ faith vs medicine as false dichotomy. God never actually said to reject help of others.

Avorne
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Avorne
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Nomad

'God acts through other people' doesn't that in essence interfere with free will then?

vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

*thinking* I think no, those that are helping are not forced to help, they still have a choice not to. God urges at most, but never forces. Maybe except prophets (Jonah say, or one off Sirah's book that was told not to stay at a place but remained there and afterwards got killed by a lion), since these are totally devoted and professed that, effectively submitting their will to God's.

Avorne
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Avorne
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Nomad

It's still interfering with people, surely, setting them along a course of action that they might not have considered or gone down had God not enlisted their help and 'acted' through them.

devoutskeptic
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devoutskeptic
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Nomad

I love Jesus. He has helped rid me of all my addictions. I would be a pedo, murdering, drug addict if not for his help.
No lie. Jesus is amazing. <3

vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Interfering? Why should He not? There's a philosophy named "deism" which stated that God once created all and left us alone. It's wrong however, and is proven wrong. And, are you not interfering with others, just by speaking with them? Sure enough they "might not consider or act as it was" but this is plain false as just another "what if". There was a fact, a deed, and now you're asking "what if there will be no this deed".

Avorne
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Avorne
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Nomad

Then the supposed free will that your deity gave you is a sham - he is interfering with you and changing the course of your actions. How the hell is deism proven wrong anyway? Far as I can see it - if there ever was a supreme being in this universe, which I'm 99.999% certain there wasn't, then it buggered off a long time ago.

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