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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

So I learned in my history class a few days ago that the main cause of the crusades was not religion.


It wasn't the main cause, but it was the driving force.

Back in that time, wars were frequent and people grew up learning to fight and what not. So now you have a period of rest...and a bunch of bored warriors. Lots of trouble and no gain. In order to fix this, the Pope decided he wanted to try for two birds with one stone, have bored warriors sucking up supplies and causing problems go fight, and reclaim the holy land. The warriors fought for religion, the Pope issued the command for gain. That's just as bad imo as the Pope doing it solely for religious gain, showing that religion is just a tool to manipulate people.

And after the crusades Europe benefited a lot from being exposed to arabian goods and culture.


That's just a side-effect of any exposure anywhere.

I think that this is intresting because it shows how people exploit religion, and not the other way around.


It's more like how a person exploits religious fanaticism and the masses are exploited by religion in the first place through the hi-jacking of rational thought.

This is also the reason I see religion as a neutral tool.


Not really. Name me a time religion was exploited for good.
dair5
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dair5
3,371 posts
Shepherd

It wasn't the main cause, but it was the driving force.


I know.

Back in that time, wars were frequent and people grew up learning to fight and what not. So now you have a period of rest...and a bunch of bored warriors. Lots of trouble and no gain. In order to fix this, the Pope decided he wanted to try for two birds with one stone, have bored warriors sucking up supplies and causing problems go fight, and reclaim the holy land. The warriors fought for religion, the Pope issued the command for gain. That's just as bad imo as the Pope doing it solely for religious gain, showing that religion is just a tool to manipulate people.


What? I think it's worse that the Pope used people for greed and had them sacrifice their life for a false cause.

That's just a side-effect of any exposure anywhere.


Yes but it was particularly good for Europe at the time because Europe was in the dark ages and this the exposure helped a lot to bring them out. It influenced the reinissance, the scientific revolution, commerical revoultion, and the age of exploration.

It's more like how a person exploits religious fanaticism and the masses are exploited by religion in the first place through the hi-jacking of rational thought.


Well religion was ingrained into tradition and culture there. People were grown up on religion strictly and taught to believe nothing else. I'm sure if this was done with something else we would have seen similar results. I have friends who think it's soo inappropriate for women to just have thier breasts out. And this absolutly has nothing to do with religion (because my friend is an atheist). That's just how the culture is.

Not really. Name me a time religion was exploited for good.


My global teacher told us about early muslims who were pretty charitable and gave women increased rights.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

I'm sure if this was done with something else we would have seen similar results.


Try it with critical thinking being ingrained into the tradition and culture of the people and let's see what happens.

My global teacher told us about early muslims who were pretty charitable and gave women increased rights.


I think this quote best fits as a reply to this.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

I have friends who think it's soo inappropriate for women to just have thier breasts out. And this absolutly has nothing to do with religion (because my friend is an atheist). That's just how the culture is.


Overlooked this.

I would ask for them to justify this statement that it's inappropriate. As I have stated in the homosexual thread, things aren't wrong by virtue alone. Oh and on a side note.

In NYC it's technically legal for a woman to walk around topless. This lovely lady is practicing her rights. (don't worry mods it's the girl from the back only.)
GreatestSoloEver
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GreatestSoloEver
1,361 posts
Nomad

What you believe doesn't make it true.


Awesome. Now tell me how i'm not entitled to believe what I want and establish for myself what I deem true.
dair5
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dair5
3,371 posts
Shepherd

I would ask for them to justify this statement that it's inappropriate. As I have stated in the homosexual thread, things aren't wrong by virtue alone.


I did, but there is of course never an actual answer. Just that they find it wrong and I'm perverted or something because I'm okay with it (both genders, either way I find it normal). I think it's really just cultural, how they were brought up.

Try it with critical thinking being ingrained into the tradition and culture of the people and let's see what happens.


Well yes of course when you make them believe that the only way to think is to think for themselves, well than that makes a lot more sense doesn't it?

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg


Or jelousy. Trama. Paranoia. Being desperate. Poverty. Bad enviornment. Religion is one of them.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Now tell me how i'm not entitled to believe what I want


You can believe what you want, just don't be surprised when people throw reality in your face when you voice them.

and establish for myself what I deem true.


If you truly believe that you're a ladybug are you? No.
If you truly believe that you can fly can you? No.
If you truly believe that you will win the lottery will you? No.
If you truly believe that you can't die can you? Yes.
If you truly believe that you should kill everyone should you? No.
If you truly believe that you ate chicken last night did you? Maybe.

Truth and reality aren't determined by beliefs. So no, you can't determine for yourself what is true through beliefs, you determine what's true through observation and examination of actual events.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Awesome. Now tell me how i'm not entitled to believe what I want and establish for myself what I deem true.


Never said you weren't entitled to your own belief. As I had stated, you are entitled to believe what you want. It's just not going to make it true. As in the example of believing that flapping your arms will allow you to fly won't make it true. Even if you deem something true doesn't make it so.

You can believe God is real, but that doesn't make it true. This is where objectively verifiable evidence comes into play.

Or jelousy. Trama. Paranoia. Being desperate. Poverty. Bad enviornment. Religion is one of them.


I see where you're going. Though aren't all of those things considered negative while religion is often regarded as good or as you put it neutral? If religion fits in with things like jealousy, trauma, poverty etc. then wouldn't that make it something to try and decrease?
GreatestSoloEver
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GreatestSoloEver
1,361 posts
Nomad

You can believe God is real, but that doesn't make it true.


And you can believe God isn't real...but that doesn't make that "reality".
just don't be surprised when people throw reality in your face when you voice them.


Real quick please, tell me how THEIR opinion is MY reality? Mine isn't proven to be theirs. Theirs can't be proven to be mine. Isn't that what you guys believe anyways? You put a religious logic on your lack of belief. Like you guys are the ones who are right, when you don't know just as much as I don't. Hypocrisy at it's finest.
partydevil
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partydevil
5,129 posts
Jester

And you can believe God isn't real...but that doesn't make that "reality".


it's not a believe. it's a disbelieve.
if you believe it is real then you should come whit proof. your the 1 making the claims of him being real not me.

how THEIR opinion is MY reality?

their opinions are reality facts.
if what you believe is reality. then your are probably hallucinating alot.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

And you can believe God isn't real...but that doesn't make that "reality".


Beliefs alone don't determine what is and is not real.

Real quick please, tell me how THEIR opinion is MY reality?


You seem to have it stuck in your head that if someone believes something that automatically makes it true, if only for them. It doesn't.

Like you guys are the ones who are right, when you don't know just as much as I don't.


There are parts to the Christian belief which are definitely false, such as the earth being flat, there being a firmament, and the literal interpretation of Genesis. That's having reality thrown in one's face.
Salvidian
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Salvidian
4,170 posts
Farmer

Now, I know I'm going to be criticized for this, but I don't believe everything in the Bible is literal. Frankly, I'd say at least 95% of the Bible was meant to come in some form of metaphorical sense. I don't know what the Bible is always referring to, but, in time, I'm sure that someday we may understand it all.

Remember the tower of Babel? People building a huge tower to reach God? That sounds a lot like imperialism leading to chaos. After the tower fell, God created a bunch of languages and gave them to different people so they couldn't understand each other. That sounds A LOT like the British empire after their colonies received independence. You have 1 unified thing, and then it is spilt up to create many diversities.

Again, I know I am going to get criticized for this, but I believe it's a pretty good observation.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

And you can believe God isn't real...but that doesn't make that "reality".


You're saying God is real. I'm saying I don't believe that claim.

There are those who actively believe that God isn't real and it would be true that their belief alone doesn't mean that it is true that God doesn't exist.

Again this is where we bring evidence into play and evaluate the claim on that. If we have no evidence to bring to the table we have no reason to accept a positive claim.

Real quick please, tell me how THEIR opinion is MY reality?


It's not, but not all claims are based solely on opinion. Again what you think is real isn't what makes it real.

Like you guys are the ones who are right, when you don't know just as much as I don't.


Let's say I said I had a ball in my hand. So you asked me to show you but I couldn't produce a ball. So you don't believe my claim that I have a ball in my hand. This doesn't mean that I'm living in some different reality to you where I have a ball in my hand. This means I'm believing something that isn't true.
But let's say I again claimed I had a ball in my hand and I showed you the ball in my hand. Here objective evidence has been used to determine that in fact there is a ball in my hand.

This works for everything including God.

Another thing to point out is my belief/disbelief of something is tentative. If new evidence can be presented showing I was wrong I will through out my previous belief. It's not held as a dogma as religion is.

Now, I know I'm going to be criticized for this, but I don't believe everything in the Bible is literal. Frankly, I'd say at least 95% of the Bible was meant to come in some form of metaphorical sense.


How do you determine what is and isn't metaphor?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/atheistjokes/403147_264442463618133_119640064765041_753622_1362111722_n.jpg

Remember the tower of Babel? People building a huge tower to reach God? That sounds a lot like imperialism leading to chaos. After the tower fell, God created a bunch of languages and gave them to different people so they couldn't understand each other. That sounds A LOT like the British empire after their colonies received independence. You have 1 unified thing, and then it is spilt up to create many diversities.


If you make something vague enough you can apply it to many situations. This is usually how prophecy and other forms of fortune telling works.

but I believe it's a pretty good observation.


No more so then if you read a horoscope that says "Indeed, you'll probably clash with some of your relatives." and you end up fighting with your sibling or your parents get on your nerves or vice versa and you end up observing that the horoscope was saying something.
Salvidian
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Salvidian
4,170 posts
Farmer

@MageGrayWolf

I highly understand that dealing with the Bible is dfficult, and there are times when I highly doubt myself, but, frankly, what would you be losing in believing in it? Now, I do try to put science in with the Bible. I'm not one of those idiots who say, "God did it. God did that too. Guess who did that? God." I often look at things from a metaphorical standpoint to find so science in it. I'm not one who is quick to believe things. I doubt everything in the Bible constantly.

Now, I haven't bored you yet, dealing with the Bibledoes take a little imagination. You have to pull some stuff apart to se what it's saying... unlike a horoscope where it's telling you outright what will happen.

I'm one stubbon person. Almost unconvincable and always proof-seeking.

dair5
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dair5
3,371 posts
Shepherd

I see where you're going. Though aren't all of those things considered negative while religion is often regarded as good or as you put it neutral? If religion fits in with things like jealousy, trauma, poverty etc. then wouldn't that make it something to try and decrease?


I mentioned those negative things because depending on how they're changed they can have a positive affect on a person. Sorry that was a horrible explaination, let me give an example. For enviornment, depending on how your enviornment is, can change who you are. A rougher enviornment might make you into a rougher person, a softer enviornment might have the opposite effect. Much like with religion. Strict religion can have a negative effect, softer religion, perhaps a positive. I'm thinking of something like buddhism. Meditation and things like that.
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