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Theism and Atheism

Posted Jun 7, '13 at 1:10pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,787 posts

Knight

i searched on a few websites and lots of people agree that there is a god even famous people like Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein agreed that there has to be a god and ill past a couple of articles which you should read and see for yourself that God exists..


Appeal to majority and an appeal to authority and in Einstein case a straw man all in one shot. At best Einstein was a pantheist.

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -Albert Einstein

On the contrary, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, and others always revolve for billions of years without single crash.


Except for that one that formed our moon, and all those asteroid impacts that we can see evidence for all over the place, or how Phobos, one of the moons of Mars will likely eventually crash into the planet as it's orbit decays in the next 50 million years, or how the early solar system was likely that of a shooting gallery leave just a few stable lucky ones. Yep other than that not a single crash.

For billions of years until now the Earth never bump into the Sun, and the Sun never collides with the Moon.


Perhaps you should take the time to learn about the physics of what's going on before declaring divine intervention.

Here is a little something to get you started.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit

To those arrogant people who deny the existence of God,


That arrogant belief that the universe and everything in it wasn't created just for us.

Allah questions them about His creatures. Who is the creator of sperm and plant? People or God the All Wise Creator?


The production of sperm is a biological process. If speaking of human sperm than in a sense people do "create" it. As for plants, nobody. They evolved over time just as animals did. This insistence that if it exists it had to be created by someone is completely false. We can observe many things that form with great varying complexity that had no conscious influence involved.

In another verse, Allah challenges others to create a fly if they could do it. Men may be could make robots from things that created by Allah. Yet, none could make a fly from nothing nor thing that could reproduce except Allah:


Yeah because people with a sever lack of knowledge in biology and chemistry is the bench mark of our limits. Also while it may not be a fly.
'Artificial life' breakthrough announced by scientists

This is a story proving Allah's existence


Actually that's just fallacious arguing set to a narrative. The boat from a tree would be an extraordinary claim as it's something we don't observe happening in nature. We normally see such a process occurring on it's own, We do see this however in the comparisons the scholar tried to use.

As for the not being able to see God part comparing it to pain. We are observing pain in a sensory way. We can detect it and if this story was set in a more modern time we could hook the person up to a machine observe their brain and chemical reactions and determine visually if they are indeed in pain. We don't have any such observable evidence for God as we do for pain.

Allah tells us that He is Pure, Loving, and absolutely Just in every respect. He says that He is the Best of Judges.


If that holy book of yours is any indication he sure doesn't demonstrate it very well.

He also tells us that the life that we are in is a test. He has created all the things that exist and He has created all that happens as well.


That makes no sense what so ever. A test is preformed by the tester to determine something they don't known, as a means of evaluations. Since this God creating everything that will happen, he would already know the outcome of the test and thus render the process of giving one moot. Further more if life was a test it's a completely unfair one given unequal treatment from person to person, not providing everyone with the right material to study and not letting anyone know for sure if the material they are studying is even the the right material or not.

Oppression is something that Allah forbids for Himself to do to anyone and He hates it when anyone oppresses someone else.


Doesn't oppress anyone, send people to Hell.

He does have absolute power over everything. He allows sickness, disease, death and even oppression so that we can all be tested in what we do.


Little 8 year old Suzy you have terminal cancer and are going to die in horrible pain so God can find out what he already knows about how everyone around you will react. And since you're not (insert religion here) you get to spend eternity being tortured.

But this is not how we perceive God in Islam. We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.


In other words you use confirmation bias.

Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.


Not done with these fallacy arguments yet? If a drinking glass formed in the same way planetary bodies do, and it was under the same environmental conditions (which it lacks both) then yes we could expect that. You're trying to compare two things with two completely different properties. It's like saying we don't expect rocks to come from orange trees so we shouldn't expect oranges to come from orange trees.

And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.


Blind watchmaker argument. Same deal as above, give it the same properties.
Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker

Can a fast food restaurant operate itself without any people there? That's crazy for anyone to even think about.


Well with sufficient computers and mechanization...

After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?"


Because that's what all the observable objectively verifiable evidence suggests.

Dr. Maurice Bucaille used to be a researcher on Pharaohâs mummy in Egypt. On Ramses II mummy he found something funny. The salt concentration in mummyâs body is very high. He found out the answer later in Al Qurâan. Ramses II is the Pharaoh that drowned by God when he chased Moses into Red Sea!


I call bull**** here. There is no reason for us to suspect anything more than the salt being from the mummification process.
Quran Miracle Debunked 3 of 50 : The Pharaoh Miracle / Ramses 2
 

Posted Jun 7, '13 at 1:17pm

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,421 posts

Knight

Allah questions them about His creatures. Who is the creator of sperm and plant? People or God the All Wise Creator?


Libido, my potential offspring, and my offspring, are created by me. Anyone or any God who claims to have created them, is asking for a violent response. Lay your dirty hands off them, such a God reeks sinisterly of a kidnapper.
 

Posted Jun 7, '13 at 2:03pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,750 posts

i searched on a few websites and lots of people agree that there is a god even famous people like Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein agreed that there has to be a god and ill past a couple of articles which you should read and see for yourself that God exists..


1) This is an appeal to authority.
2) Albert Einstein did not, though Newton did.

On the contrary, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, and others always revolve for billions of years without single crash.


Planetary bodies collide all the time.

For billions of years until now the Earth never bump into the Sun, and the Sun never collides with the Moon.


This is a tautology. Yes, the earth has never crashed into the sun and the moon has never crashed into the earth. If they had, we wouldn't be here to say they had.

Without God, the Controller of the Universe, none of these would happen.


Last time I checked, physics was responsible for that. Gravity and all.

Everything is in order because there is God who controls everything. Allah has put orbit for each of those things. If we really think about it then we will know that God exist.


This is a non sequitur. You are making a random leap in saying a god is responsible for this phenomenon, much less your particular god.

If we really think about it, then we have no evidence of any god's existence, especially yours, where specific claims can be disproved.

ââ¦Lo! Those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from him. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!â [Quran 22:73]


*Facepalm* There's actually a VERSE of this ridiculous argument? Sigh.

Hearing that, they realized that they trapped with their own statement.


Uh, no. A tree randomly falling, then randomly losing its branches, then randomly carving itself out into a boat, is VASTLY different than the universe following natural laws.

âSo, though we cannot see the pain does not mean that the pain does not exist.


We can see pain. Under an fMRI, we can see where the brain's neurons fire from stimulus. Same for everything else, because our brain is responsible for how we interpret everything.

So yes, we can see pain, and we can prove pain exists. This has nothing to do with a god.

Allah tells us that He is Pure, Loving, and absolutely Just in every respect. He says that He is the Best of Judges. He also tells us that the life that we are in is a test. He has created all the things that exist and He has created all that happens as well. There is nothing in this existence except what He has created. He also says in the Quran that He created evil (although He is not evil). He is using this as one of the many tests for us.


He tells us he's 'pure.'
He tells us he's 'loving.'
He tells us he's 'just.'

Then he goes on to set up all of his creations for failure and sends a good majority of them to eternal torture for being imperfect. Sorry, I'm not seeing the love or justness.

Why do we even need to be tested?

We can look to the things that He has created and the way that He cares for things and sustains us, to know that there is no doubt of His existence.


You can look at anything, and say something made it without evidence. Literally, this is a baseless claim. Anyone can look at the same thing and say whatever they want. A ghost did it. Aliens. God. Allah. Yaweh, Shiva, Zeus, or any other supernatural force.

Except we have no evidence for any of that, and you're just saying whatever you want. You don't 'know.' You're just ascribing your preference.

Think about this the next time that you are looking up at the moon or the stars on a clear night; could you drop a drinking glass on the sidewalk and expect that it would hit the ground and on impact it would not shatter, but it would divide up into little small drinking glasses, with iced tea in them? Of course not.


This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic and is ridiculous.

And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not.


Just keep throwing those watchmakers fallacies out ad nauseum. We'll eventually stop responding to them and you can make-believe you've won a point, because we're tired of repeating ourselves.

After considering all of the above, how could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think that all of this came about as a result of a "big bang" or some "accident?"


Argument from incredulity.

This bit of knowledge could never be known to humans before the invention and use of microscopes.


Yes it could have. Bees aren't microscopic. We can see them with our own eyes.
 

Posted Jun 7, '13 at 3:30pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,787 posts

Knight

You can look at anything, and say something made it without evidence. Literally, this is a baseless claim. Anyone can look at the same thing and say whatever they want. A ghost did it. Aliens. God. Allah. Yaweh, Shiva, Zeus, or any other supernatural force.


Case in point.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/419075_429499943815002_1240635425_n.jpg
 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 12:48am

OperationNilo

OperationNilo

4,065 posts

The WEPR get more and more ridiculous every day.

 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 1:54am

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

9,824 posts

You can look at anything, and say something made it without evidence. Literally, this is a baseless claim. Anyone can look at the same thing and say whatever they want. A ghost did it. Aliens. God. Allah. Yaweh, Shiva, Zeus, or any other supernatural force.

Case in point.


I'll one up you.

If the almighty Steve doesn't exist

Then...he is alright with you believing that..and just hopes you live a life full of positive qualities and of good nature.
 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:02am

mbbs112

mbbs112

192 posts

interesting and heres a little more evidence and try explaining it okay and try to mind your language as bull**** is a bad word

There are some things which you guys said for example tthat you can see most things with the help of technology but you cant see yourself hence there is a limit to the human sight and there are many verses in the Quran that explain how lightning is produced and how it looks under the sea even though people at the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) could just put their hand inside a sea but couldnt see anything although how is it that they had the Quran which has the answers to everything and yet you guys say that a human was the author of the Quran? Many scientists have read the quran and seen that many things that were discovered later on after the 14th century were already written in the Holy Quran such as female bees act as workers for the queen and that male bees mate with the queen and die after 90 days and that how lightning is made and that we humans didnt evolve at all but originated from Hazrat Adam and Hazrat Hawa.

[quote]The scientific story of creation of life is just one example of how the Holy Quran convinces its readers that no human on this Planet could have authored this Book. Many of the scientific facts revealed became known only in the last century or so. The Messenger of God, Prophet Muhammed (Peace and blessings of God be upon him) was an illiterate man. It was impossible for him or for any other human being 1428 years ago to know about such facts.

This explains that most of the facts which you guys know today which you learned from after the 14th century were told to The Holy Prophet (pbuh) in the form of revelations brought by Hazrat Jibrael which was later made into a book the Holy Quran

 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:15am

mbbs112

mbbs112

192 posts

O humans! Be pious (careful of your duty) to your Lord, Who created you from a single self (soul), and from it He created its mate, and from them He has spread a multitude of men and women (Al-Nissa, 4: 1).

This verse tells us that the beginning of life was a single self (soul), then its mate came out of it. Biological science tells us that the earliest form of life was represented by single cell organisms found in water, then these multiplied by splitting themselves. With the course of time, reproduction evolved to become by mating pairs, instead of the archaic forms of splitting or dividing.

24.45 . Allah has created every animal out of water . Of them (is a category which) walks upon its belly, (another which) walks upon two legs, and ( a third which) walks upon four . Allah creates what He wills. Allah is Able to do everything (he wants) .

In this verse, Allah (Praise to Him) tells us that animals were originally created out of water (as was the origin of humans). Some of these animals walk on their belly (like snakes), others walk on two legs or on four legs.
We know that almost all animals except kangaroos (and penguins) walk on four legs. However, for Prophet Muhammed (Peace and blessings be upon him) and old world humans at the time of revelation (1429 years ago), they did not know that there was an animal which walked on two legs in Australia. Only God knew that and has told us about it, as another piece of evidence that He is the author of the Holy Qurâan, not any human .

32.8 . Then He made his offspring from a quintessence of despised water (coming out of parents).

32.9. Then He shaped him (in due proportions), and breathed in him of His Spirit, and made for you hearing, sight, and hearts; little thanks you give.

When the fetus reaches a degree of mental development that allows it tor receive information, Godâs basic software is installed in it. An angel blows part of Godâs spirit in His new creation. This includes at least two programs.

The first is shared with other living beings, in order to make the organs of an organism functioning internally and automatically. The second is unique to humans in that it allows humans to distinguish good from evil and consequently enables them to choose their actions.

15.26 . We created the human being from stinking, smooth, (and wet) clay.

This verse gives a very specific description of the environment where life started. It refers to swamps where still water is combined with the earth soil, which creates stinking but smooth clay easy to take different forms.
This is exactly what biologists have come up with to explain the beginning of life on Earth.

[quote]7. 11. And We created you (humans, in plural form), then fashioned you (made you in the image you are, also addressing humans in plural form), then said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam! And they prostrated, all except Iblis (another name for Satan), who was not of those who made prostration.

In this verse, God Almighty praise to Him is telling angels that Adam (and his offspring by implication) is higher in rank than angels themselves. Thatâs why He asked them to make prostration to Adam as an acknowledgement from them that he is higher than they are in the ladder of creation. All angels obeyed except Iblis (Satan) who refused arguing that he is better than humans, saying that he was created of fire while Adam was created of clay.

Humans have been more preferred by God as higher in rank than angels because of their ability to acquire more knowledge and because of their ability to choose between right and wrong. While angels are created to be obedient to God, humans have been given the ability to do that by choice. However, Satan refused to acknowledge that humans are better than him and asked God to give him (and his offspring) the chance to prove his point, by derailing humans from the right path. God accepted the challenge and delayed Satan's punishment to also include humans who listen to him. (Footnote # 3)

The Arabic words relevant to this article in the above verse are the verbs khalaqa (created) and sawwara (fashioned the image). These two words refer to the two stages of creating life first, then increasing its complexity, and finally bringing it to the human stage (Verse 82.7 above), which is higher in rank than angels.

This verse gives support to the argument of creating humans through stages of creation, fashioning, and education (2.31). Neither Bin Katheer nor Yusuf Ali could explain (consistently) why the verse starts by addressing humans in plural form (We created you (khalaqnakum), then fashioned you (sawarnakum). After using "then" to indicate the passing of a period of time, God praise to Him tells angels to prostrate to Adam, who is one human being. This means that Adam was chosen as the best example of humans who have been created, fashioned, and educated by God, in order to win the contest of knowledge vis-a-vis angels.
 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:17am

mbbs112

mbbs112

192 posts

[quote]10. 92. Today, We save you (Pharaoh of Egypt) through saving your body so that you may be a sign for those after you . Lo! Most people are heedless of Our signs.

This verse is part of the story of Moussa (Moses), peace be upon him, and the Pharaoh of Egypt, which is told in several chapters of the Holy Qur'an, including Younus, Chapter 10, Verses 79-92.

Bin Katheer (Volume 2: 203-205) mentioned that when Moussa (pbuh) hit the sea with his stick, it split like a huge cliff on each side, creating twelve paths for the twelve Israelite tribes, each one separated from the other by a glass window. When the Pharaoh and his army arrived and saw the awesome view, they were afraid to proceed but the senior angel, Jibril (Gabriel) encouraged them to continue by marching in front of them. When all of them were in the middle of the path, God ordered the sea waters to merge again, drowning them all.

Bin Katheer added that despite what they saw by their eyes, the Israelites asked Moussa to show them the body of the Pharaoh to make sure that he died. God gave them what they wanted by throwing the body of the Pharaoh to the shore, so they can see it, as a sign of God's punishment for those who oppress believers.

I see a different interpretation for the Arabic words liman khalfaka (to those after you). The Israelites of Moussa (pbuh) lived at the time of the Pharaoh, not after his time. Therefore, the sign was intended to be to those who would come after that time, simply because the Israelites saw the miracle and lived it by themselves.

The interpretation I see closer to the meaning of these words in the verse is that God decided to preserve the Pharaoh's body to be a sign for the generations of humans who would come after the Pharaoh's time.

The Pharaoh's body was probably carried to the Egyptian capital by those who stayed away and did not drown, to be mummified, in order to be preserved for future generations of humans to see. Mummies of the Egyptian pharaohs were discovered in 1898 and now displayed in the Royal Mummies Room of the Egyptian Museum, in Cairo.

There is no agreement between historians and biblical scholars about the pharaohs involved in the story or the time they lived. Some authors identify the oppressive Pharaoh as Seti I, the Exodus pharaoh as Ramses II, and the Exodus event about 1290 BC, according to Encyclopedia Britannica.

 

Posted Jun 8, '13 at 2:23am

Kasic

Kasic

5,750 posts

mbbs112, you're simply reading these passages to mean what you want them to. I read them and do not see any of this. You're interpreting them with a bias and skewing various metaphors to fit what you want. All we really have here is a bunch of vague sayings that you're construing into modern science.

This is cherry picking, plain and simple. You're not proving anything by throwing a bunch of verses at us and saying they mean what you say they do.

 
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