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Theism and Atheism

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 10:08am

Fiends

Fiends

114 posts

Not only


Convincing the fanatics too.


1) You have taken the stance of gnostic Atheist. Because of this gnostic stance, you must now back it up.



The whole thought or idea of a God or Gods is completely idiotic. Humanity needs to have a babysitter, nanny Jesus is a great example of this as humanity needs the thought of an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being to look after them. Pathetic.

Dude, you're the one that has to prove me, considering how there is no evidence of God even existing.
 

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 10:52am

09philj

09philj

2,146 posts

But notice that the challenge lies in doing something that is logically impossible


You are assuming god is bound by logic and cause and effect. God being an omnipresent force that permeates everything but has no substance. Why should an omnipotent being be forced to obey logic anyway?
 

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 11:28am

Moegreche

Moegreche

3,260 posts

Moderator

You are assuming god is bound by logic and cause and effect.


Only logic, not cause and effect.

Why should an omnipotent being be forced to obey logic anyway?


Why shouldn't God be bound by logic? These are rules that necessarily obtain, so holding that God is bound by these laws isn't merely an assumption - it's a position the theist must hold on pain of inconsistency.
Think about it like this. The thought that God is bound by logic is a completely consistent position to hold, so this sort of argument is strawmanning the theist's position. This is because holding this position does not, in fact, challenge God's omnipotence in any significant way.
But maybe you're just not convinced by any of this, and that's okay! I don't know if I am either. However, there are much better questions to pose to the theist. One example would be whether God is bound by some sort of objective moral framework. If so, this might present a deeper challenge to His omnipotence (though there are compelling responses to this worry, too).

Dude, you're the one that has to prove me, considering how there is no evidence of God even existing.


I think pang's point here is that you're taking on much more than you need. So take this claim:

Humanity needs to have a babysitter, nanny Jesus is a great example of this as humanity needs the thought of an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being to look after them. Pathetic.


Now you've charged the theist with beliefs that she wouldn't accept. It sounds like you're suggesting that these are the reasons that people do in fact (or should) believe in God. But the theist would agree with you that these are terrible reasons to believe in God and even worse reasons to worship Him.

pang also mentioned that you're taking on a gnostic atheist position. That means that you're claiming knowledge of the proposition that God doesn't exist. This stance requires some serious justification - the same sort that would be required by a gnostic theist. Since you haven't provided an argument, your position has no grounding.
 

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 12:18pm

09philj

09philj

2,146 posts

Why would a benevolent God create us if He knew we would cause such widespread suffering and destruction? There is no benefit to God in creating such beings unless God has some requirement that we can fulfill, God must create beings, or God did not create us. This would suggest that the creation of the human race was a selfish act for God's benefit only or God is not our creator. (You can't argue our creation was for our benefit as it is only beneficial to us if we had already been created.)

Anyway, why should God be our master? What can he offer us that is not attainable in life? Due to humanity's endless capacity to be bored, eternal bliss is something I do not believe is attainable. (furthermore, what is bliss worth without a lack of it?) There is of course, the threat of an eternity hell, but this seems to be an overreaction to a mere lifetime of misdeeds. (And what sort of love is that?)

The final thing I have to say is this. Why does God need worship? If you follow his rules and recognize that He is there, what good is it prostrating yourself sycophantically before Him every day? It could be that proof denies faith and without faith He is nothing. However, that would mean all that would be required to destroy God would be to prove he exists.

 

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 12:20pm

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

9,890 posts

Convincing the fanatics too.


And you couldn't do so without delving into their belief system as if it were law?

Dude, you're the one that has to prove me, considering how there is no evidence of God even existing.


As Moe has stated, which is a larger reiteration of what I stated, because of your gnostic stance you must also prove your position.

In case you are wondering how...a picture:
http://i.stack.imgur.com/yX0vu.png

While atheism is the disbelief in a deity, which is inherently a position which does not need to be backed (as same with agnostic theism), gnostic atheism is the belief there are no deities. A key difference, if you can catch it.
 

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 12:22pm

Fiends

Fiends

114 posts

pang also mentioned that you're taking on a gnostic atheist position. That means that you're claiming knowledge of the proposition that God doesn't exist. This stance requires some serious justification - the same sort that would be required by a gnostic theist. Since you haven't provided an argument, your position has no grounding.


I don't need to give justification because at least science is capable of giving evidence of the creation of the world, unlike religion

How did god get here? Do you think god just appeared out of nowhere? What is this a fairy tale? Come on, get real. God isn't going to pop out of no where like that, someone had to create him right?
 

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 12:22pm

09philj

09philj

2,146 posts

The question of intelligent design also works against God in that were I an omnipotent, omniscient being who could create any life I would build something better than humans.

 

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 12:25pm

09philj

09philj

2,146 posts

God isn't going to pop out of no where like that, someone had to create him right?


There is always the possibility that God has a God who has a God who has a God who has a God ad nauseum.
 

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 12:25pm

Fiends

Fiends

114 posts

Anyway, why should God be our master? What can he offer us that is not attainable in life? Due to humanity's endless capacity to be bored, eternal bliss is something I do not believe is attainable. (furthermore, what is bliss worth without a lack of it?) There is of course, the threat of an eternity hell, but this seems to be an overreaction to a mere lifetime of misdeeds. (And what sort of love is that?)



Listen to this guy, with hard work you can get everything you want, without having to waste your time begging for a non-existent being to change your life around.
 

Posted Feb 5, '14 at 1:15pm

FishPreferred

FishPreferred

1,846 posts

@Fiends; who exactly are you trying to convince, and how do you intend to convince them?

How is the universe popping out of nowhere any more logical than a god doing so? There is no evidence of the creation of the world by any means. If only for that reason, your argument is not self-sufficient.

 
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