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Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
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If this is the case, why did he need to replace his old laws with new love laws instead of just beginning with those laws?Just because we are no longer that primitive. Did you ever play Civilization, any edition? When society grows in experience, it starts to value others more than before. It's like when you teach your child - if he meets something hostile he should first go see his parents for it, while he's small, later on he'll be given some freedom in deciding, along with responsibility.
Why would God ever allow slavery to happen? Why would God ever allow children to get stoned to death for being unruly? Why would God ever want you to strike down your wife if she didn't know which God was real and had no way of knowing?Well, do recall how people behaved at the time Abraham lived. Slavery all around, and "gods" of every way mankind thought. This is a sickness, but it's global, so to not ruin everything, we needed laws to first ease the dependency on slaves, then elimination when people will find out that their slaves are people too. Pretty much the same with all the other questions, including children - the pre-OT and OT society didn't value children.
Furthermore, do Jesus' new commandments cancel out the Old Ten Commandments?No, they come along on the same level of priority. Note that "one superior commandment" that is "love God with all your being" and "love thy neighbor" are above the Ten Commandments in priority (actually it contains the whole of the first of the Ten in it). You claim "stealing of love"? You have to love everyone, not only those whom you plan to give the loot, but only that one who gets deprived of valuables by your hand. And, do recall the maxima "Do to others what you want to be done to you". Do you want someone else to steal from you?
If the Ten Commandments are still valid, then we have no way of deciphering what stays and what goes.Well, we are given another scale to compare deeds against, that's why many of the smaller Old Testament commandments remain in place, but have zero appliance area, so effectively they cannot be applied anywhere. So technically everything stays, but as something cannot be applied to anyone, that something is irrelevant.
Why was God so cruel and active in the Old Testament and suddenly, now when things are verifiable, he's an invisible guardian that loves us but can punish us if we don't blindly accept him?First, not "blindly" but "willingly". He is the only one who can guide you through death into vita aeterna. But first you need to learn how to live by words of God. Second, He is still active, you might at least read about Fatima's events.
It all depends on subjective morality; you want the Bible's morals to be in tune with society's morals so that we can all relate to it.Instead, one will want society's morale to be in tune with the Bible's morale - this means, make society not sin as a whole. Sinning as a whole includes promoting free sex, abortions, drugs (narcotics, not medicine), divorces, child abuse (this includes juvenal justice), juridical corruption (as we have over here), and depriving people of homes, food, job opportunities (there are some places where one cannot find a job), wages below critical mark (country dependant, but if one works all day, he should earn enough for him to make a base living), and maybe more. Instead of sinning, the society should value life, family, charity and care for souls. However, the morale "if you don't want to work, then don't eat" should persist, to eliminate the problem where no one would desire to work but will live on the jobless funds.
^^ Well, this all is from a person who is no expert in politics, so other flaws could hide in this ^^
Why was God so cruel and active in the Old Testament and suddenly, now when things are verifiable, he's an invisible guardian that loves us but can punish us if we don't blindly accept him?
@vesperbot, I think you didn't quite answer that point. I would gladly hear your opinion on it too, I have asked myself several times why the god described in the old and the new testament are so different from each other.
Consider this: a perfect being does not change, it is (achieved) immutability (in the case of the christian god, he has always been like that). So either both testaments describe different gods, or one of them cannot be seen as valid for christianity?
Well, it might be that we no longer require harsh measures to be directed the right way, so God decided to use more subtle approaches. Say there's a primitive, who has a club. You ask him something, he clubs you in return, so in order to make him do something, you take a club yourself. But when he's a bit educated, he won't use his club at once and will probably consider the issue, and obey. It's likewise with us being a growing primitive as a society, and God. First we only reckoned force, and we got demonstration of force. Now we can listen to reason or be empathical enough, so God approaches us with wisdom and love.
I'd like to know how does God choose a person to talk to, and even while I have some ideas, I can never be sure... and I'm not sure it will do me any good.
When society grows in experience, it starts to value others more than before. It's like when you teach your child - if he meets something hostile he should first go see his parents for it, while he's small, later on he'll be given some freedom in deciding, along with responsibility.
The point I'm trying to make is that if God has an absolute morality, then he shouldn't have had a problem telling people the truth about slavery, especially considering that he was revealing himself so they would know that he exists for a fact.
However, if morality really is subjective to what people believe, then it would make sense for made-up gods to believe in something that we no longer accept.
Well, do recall how people behaved at the time Abraham lived. Slavery all around, and "gods" of every way mankind thought. This is a sickness, but it's global, so to not ruin everything, we needed laws to first ease the dependency on slaves, then elimination when people will find out that their slaves are people too. Pretty much the same with all the other questions, including children - the pre-OT and OT society didn't value children.
It really doesn't matter what everyone else does, though, because God has his own morality. And we have no accounts of God opposing slavery anywhere in the Bible, but many accounts of him supporting slavery and stating how slaves and their children were the master's property. We can only assume that God supports slavery.
Well, we are given another scale to compare deeds against, that's why many of the smaller Old Testament commandments remain in place, but have zero appliance area, so effectively they cannot be applied anywhere. So technically everything stays, but as something cannot be applied to anyone, that something is irrelevant.
What this tells us is that God supports all the old things he said. It doesn't matter if we no longer practice slavery; God still thinks slaves are property and deserve to be beaten. It doesn't matter if women have more equal rights nowadays; God still thinks they should remain silent in church and that they should submit to their husbands.
First, not "blindly" but "willingly". He is the only one who can guide you through death into vita aeterna. But first you need to learn how to live by words of God. Second, He is still active, you might at least read about Fatima's events.
Blindly and willingly; we have no reason to believe in God. The best reason people tend to come up with is "I don't know how to explain X, so it was God." We don't know; maybe there's a god, but until we have some solid and irrefutable evidence, we can't go ahead and assume that everyone that doesn't 100% accept that god will be tortured forever.
Instead, one will want society's morale to be in tune with the Bible's morale - this means, make society not sin as a whole. Sinning as a whole includes promoting free sex, abortions, drugs (narcotics, not medicine), divorces, child abuse (this includes juvenal justice), juridical corruption (as we have over here), and depriving people of homes, food, job opportunities (there are some places where one cannot find a job), wages below critical mark (country dependant, but if one works all day, he should earn enough for him to make a base living), and maybe more. Instead of sinning, the society should value life, family, charity and care for souls. However, the morale "if you don't want to work, then don't eat" should persist, to eliminate the problem where no one would desire to work but will live on the jobless funds.
Hypothetically, what if the civil war had never happened, and slavery actually spread throughout America? You can foresee Bible-thumpers backing up slavery with the Bible, can't you? And how could we refute such clearly pro-slave verses?
However, because we decided against slavery, and there is no non-Bible justification for it, suddenly those verses don't count as the absolute morality. Will we say the same things when gay marriage is legalized and nobody can come up with a non-biblical argument against it? Love is a generic term, but society has changed what it believes love to be. Love for women used to be submitting their intelligence and bodies to their husbands forever. Certainly we can say that we have evolved out of this notion.
Love used to be beating your children to discipline them. Now this is called abuse. I guarantee that a child molester could justify raping children by saying that they love them.
Is it really the Bible's absolute morality, or our own subjective morality that we are backing up with some of the Bible while ignoring the rest of it?
Well, it might be that we no longer require harsh measures to be directed the right way, so God decided to use more subtle approaches. Say there's a primitive, who has a club. You ask him something, he clubs you in return, so in order to make him do something, you take a club yourself. But when he's a bit educated, he won't use his club at once and will probably consider the issue, and obey. It's likewise with us being a growing primitive as a society, and God. First we only reckoned force, and we got demonstration of force. Now we can listen to reason or be empathical enough, so God approaches us with wisdom and love.
But does God really approach us? I've never seen any evidence of him, and it seems to me that you can attribute anything good to God if you really wanted to believe that. Doesn't it make more sense to not assume that it was God until you have some sort of reason to think it was God?
I have a simpler explanation. God could not and would not be investigated back then, so they made up all kinds of fantastical stories about him in tune with what they thought was a moral code. We evolved out of that code and we began investigating. Now God works in "mysterious ways". Maybe the real mystery is deciding whether we should believe in something that didn't need to exist to cause our existence.
I'd like to know how does God choose a person to talk to, and even while I have some ideas, I can never be sure... and I'm not sure it will do me any good.
Before wondering how God chooses to talk to a person, you might first want to wonder IF God chooses to talk to a person, or going one step further, if there is a God to talk to.
I think we're missing the point here anyway. Maybe you believe that the Old Testament laws are laws we've outgrown, but according to this passage:
Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Either God believes in these Old Testament principles, or he is tricking us into doing vile and evil deeds, and he will punish us for following his book to the strictest letter as commanded.
Or, maybe God doesn't exist.
Is being gullible wrong?
After the examples I've provided you have to ask?
And, we are guided by faith in divine matters mostly, all the mundane matters are being approached with normal thinking involved. But if something is elevated from mundane-only to concern both, then you are to rethink your position, indeed. And even in divine matters, Apostle Paul teaches us to test spirits whether they are from God or not. This also involves thinking. How come you say faith means lack of thinking?
Doesn't matter what you use it for. If your just believing without justification for something you consider even more important than what you would require hard evidence for, that just being even more foolish.
First, not "blindly" but "willingly". He is the only one who can guide you through death into vita aeterna. But first you need to learn how to live by words of God. Second, He is still active, you might at least read about Fatima's events.
So long as it requires faith it's blindly. I have read up on Fatima's events and we have already covered how much bunk it is. (for the non English speaking who might have a hard time translating bunk is slang for absurd, ridiculous, nonsense)
I can no longer take this post seriously.
I think we have gotten a pretty good look at the spectrum of Christianity.
Every time we answer one of your questions, or make you think, you move on to a different topic or ask another question to question Christianity,you are in such a hurry to prove us wrong. Why? What satisfaction do you get out of trying to cripple our faith? And don't pull the cra* about brainwashing and this and that. I want a real answer.
Every time we answer one of your questions, or make you think
You haven't really been that much of a mental challenge actually.
you move on to a different topic or ask another question to question Christianity,you are in such a hurry to prove us wrong. Why? What satisfaction do you get out of trying to cripple our faith? And don't pull the cra* about brainwashing and this and that. I want a real answer.
I find the reliance on faith to be ultimately dangerous or at the very least foolish. I get satisfaction from someone using there brain and abilities to reason, such thinking once developed and applied can benefit a great number of people.
Also on a much more personal and selfish note these talks (when I am challenged) remind me a bit of the talks I use to have with my dad when he was still alive.
Every time we answer one of your questions, or make you think, you move on to a different topic or ask another question to question Christianity,you are in such a hurry to prove us wrong. Why?
What we're doing is asking questions about your religion. If you can provide an explanation that answers one question but opens up new questions, what's wrong with making those questions known? Religion is supposed to be providing answers for everything. You believe something and we're asking why. Is that really a problem?
What satisfaction do you get out of trying to cripple our faith? And don't pull the cra* about brainwashing and this and that. I want a real answer.
Even though the brainwashing answer is a completely valid one, we'll steer clear of that.
What better way to find out the truth than to be skeptical of all the options? We're simply discussing our beliefs (or lack thereof). Atheism doesn't hold any absolute morals or make claims, which is why it doesn't get the same amount of skepticism. Religion has an entire doctrine, so there is more to question. You shouldn't take such offense to it; if the questions we are posing are just "desperate attacks to cripple your faith" that have no validity, then you should have no problem providing the justification.
if the questions we are posing are just "desperate attacks to cripple your faith" that have no validity, then you should have no problem providing the justification.
Here's the kicker. If there is valid evidence supporting what's being believed in on faith, faith is then no longer needed.
Replace "faith" with "gullibility" in his question and it basically answers itself.
Well. History dictates that Christianity as an organized religion has killed many many people. Look at Ponce de Leon during the 1800s during his attempts to conquer the native populace of Florida and locate a mythical relic called the fountain of youth. It's no secret many of the Spanish Conquistadors were devout Roman Catholics.
Jerusalem was laid to seige in 1099 by the Franks in an attempt to "Restore Christian faith to the holy land". Many mosques and synagogues were destroyed during this time. Many Muslims and Jews were tortured and killed in the name of faith.
In the late 17th century, many innocent colonists in the New World were hung or burned during the now infamous Witch Hunts which were quite commonplace during that era. To this day, it is unknown how many victims were killed. Granted, all of this took place prior to the American Revolution, but some of these people who murdered under suspicion of non-adherence to unfathomably strict church laws, went on to enjoy safety from religious persecution after the Revolution as hypocrits.
Finally, and most importantly, the KKK are predominantly inhabited by devout protestant Christians in the United States, yet their perverse ideological bases and interpretations of their own faiths lead to terrible and heinous acts against humanity. Quite simply, they despise people who by the core texts of Christian faith, (The Bible) are children of God. And they still are responsible for the murders of innocent human beings every day.
I am a Christian, and I know that there are reasons to hate Christians. I believe that each man and woman must make their own path through life, and worry about their fate on their own. Because no matter what you believe, you will face that belief when you shut your eyes for the last time.
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