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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,150 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

An atheist sins by denying God, once he was informed about God existing, in fact by ANY evidence - you will be asked why you didn't reply. If one had no chance of hearing that God exists, God loves us all and He sent his Son to suffer on the cross for us, resurrected Him so that we will be able to follow Him and be saved, and is with us for all days, he has no sin of denying God - you can't deny what you haven't heard of existing. Still, his conscience is still with him, rest read above.


Then why tell anyone he exists at all if all it does is put numerous people in danger of going to hell? I'm asked to believe in something without any reason to believe it beyond idol threats that I will suffer. I'm asked to accept an unnecessary horrific act of cruelty as if it was a good thing. If all it takes to save everyone from hell is simply not inform anyone of such a system then The Bible does a great disservice to humanity. If such things exists there isn't a single positive aspect that could not later be gained after we die.

He did, however if you'd ask for a snake, the Father will likely not give you a snake.


But I like snakes....

And you don't know what's best for a person so you can ask this for him, except you can always ask for salvation of a person.


If God really wanted us to believe in him then such evidence would go a long way to that goal. Such evidence would go a long way to convincing many skeptics.

Health (remedy, successful operation outcome, etc) is deemed good in the eyes of humans, but is not always good in eyes of God.


Mental gymnastics.
Nurvana
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Nurvana
2,520 posts
Farmer

I have tried, if you look 60 pages back in this topic, but I have found that God can't be either proven or disproven by binary logic, thus making any attempt of talking on this level fruitless. You can still object this.


Then GTFO. But jeez Vesper you look lonely, so I guess I'll reach back into my well of christian knowledge and try to help you out.
If God created the world, and all that is natural, then he created homosexuality.


Sin is a result of God's creation of free will. He wanted his people to have free will, so when he gave them the option to do good, he had to give a contrary decision, which was sin. But, giving the opportunity to sin in the fist place seems like a pretty **** move. (Page 83 pun intended.)
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

If all it takes to save everyone from hell is simply not inform anyone of such a system then The Bible does a great disservice to humanity.
The word "everyone" here is wrong. Those people who do good blindly, while only intuitively sensing what's good, will see the light and watch their good flourish in them and their neighbors. Those that do bad will refuse to accept the light of truth, but even if we won't inform them, they will enter hell after death. The light of the Gospel is here to provide a means to convert from doing bad to doing good. If a person does half good, half bad, he'll be guided to doing all good and thus being saved.
If God really wanted us to believe in him then such evidence would go a long way to that goal.
You want evidence of people that were saved due to prayers of others? Ask Gloria Polo then, she was literally saved from entering Hell (but she wasn't yet allowed to enter Heaven, but instead guided to return here), she gives evidence of God showing her how many people prayed for her, and because of them she wasn't doomed.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

But, giving the opportunity to sin in the fist place seems like a pretty **** move.
Yes, it looks bad from down here. But think about it, would you like your neighbors and children to love you only when you order them to? God wants us to find out He loves us and love Him in return, and as a result of our own free will's choice. But giving someone a free choice is also giving him a chance to mistake if he'll choose wrong. Such mistakes, if they are made against love, are named sins.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

The light of the Gospel is here to provide a means to convert from doing bad to doing good. If a person does half good, half bad, he'll be guided to doing all good and thus being saved.


But the whole system puts people who do good at risk and even condemns many, as there are many atheists who do good.

Condemning someone for simply not believing unfounded, contradictory and ridiculous sounding claims is not a beneficial system. There are many "bad people" who only follow it out of fear. There are many bad deeds that can be done in the name of this deity that are completely justified by this book. So even in the department of just trying to get bad people to do good it falls severely short.

Ask Gloria Polo then, she was literally saved from entering Hell (but she wasn't yet allowed to enter Heaven, but instead guided to return here)


A single persons personal experience isn't going to provide sufficient or reliable evidence.

Yes, it looks bad from down here. But think about it, would you like your neighbors and children to love you only when you order them to?


I wouldn't command them to love me at all the way God has. Issuing such commands only circumvents the free will in the first place.

I also can't help but to think I'm getting the goal post moved on me here.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

But the whole system puts people who do good at risk and even condemns many, as there are many atheists who do good.
Well, if an atheist lives by his conscience, but denies God as commanding, I can only hope for him to see God as loving prior to him dying, since I don't know what will await him - it's up to God to decide, it's however possible that such an atheist could end up in purgatory (thus being saved). In fact atheists also differ - some claim them being agnostics, some stand for "there is no God", some even fight for this, and several other classifications. To each its own here, God views us not as groups, but as individuals, unique and complete, and when it comes to judgement, He does that regarding one's capabilities, experience, etc etc, which can't be embraced by a human mind. If you don't have a belief in God, you don't have steady ground, so when temptations come, you're likely to be dragged away. A person who does good has steady ground below him which is based on good principles of behavior, and if he'd accept God as his cornerstone, he'll have an infallible ground. It's a lot harder to move a house that's standing on rock than a house that's standing on sand. And this "system" is incomplete as viewed by the book only, it has no life without God. You can read the Bible through and through but not accept God, effectively not believing in Him though knowing much.
A single persons personal experience isn't going to provide sufficient or reliable evidence.
You can search for more hagiography, like "The story of one soul" by Therese of Child Jesus, the diary of Faustina Kowalska, the biography of Giovanni Bosco, and more. This will no longer be a single person's evidence, it will however vary in forms but not in the meaning.
I wouldn't command them to love me at all the way God has
God does not command as directly as people do. He wants us to accept His love and to love Him in return, indeed, but He never forces us into loving Him.
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack. And oh look, Vesper failed to comply with Mr.Walker. Pretty sure Mr.Walker told you to start using sources! Your opinions don't mean squat in a debate, and since you want everyone else to give YOU proof, then we want you to give US proof. So, come on, sources.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

it's however possible that such an atheist could end up in purgatory (thus being saved).


Purgatory isn't even in the Bible. That was completely thought up later.

Even so we are still looking at a punishment for ridiculous and unnecessary reasons.

If you don't have a belief in God, you don't have steady ground, so when temptations come, you're likely to be dragged away.


people can do things without sky daddy. And he put the temptations there in the first place! It's like a hunt saving some animal from falling into the trap he himself set up. And don't give me that "it's the devil" bs since it's still God who let's him run wild.

You can read the Bible through and through but not accept God, effectively not believing in Him though knowing much.


That's from not giving it any actual thought and playing these mental gymnastic games to accuse anything that is morally reprehensible and contradictory.

This will no longer be a single person's evidence, it will however vary in forms but not in the meaning.


All of which is still personal experience. Such evidence is no better then a group of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens. We do not see a higher then average difference between those who are prayer for and those who are not.

God does not command as directly as people do. He wants us to accept His love and to love Him in return, indeed, but He never forces us into loving Him.


Yes he did issue commands directly and I would call "worship and love me or burn in hell" being forced.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

I told you, this discussion ends in a stalemate. You don't see my reasoning and you don't rebuke my arguments in a logical manner, you just say BS and "I don't want".

First, this is my FULL post.
Second, do not ask for logic and then not deliver it yourself.
Third, how is that a lie? I just explained it. You ignored the important part of the argument intentionally.
Why?
I think I got him.
That argument is BS and I have to REPEAT myself. Oorah.
In childhood kids are open to any lie possible, if they are told something, they nearly undoubtedly believe it in one form or another. Being born into Christianity or another religion is a way of life, and it is froze into their beliefs. It is barely a personal choice and it is barely free will or fair.


I'll do my best to not answer your unbacked statements.

Again, a lie. Why are you throwing away my arguments? Do you know they're right? Are you shutting out that which you can't skew off?
I done that on purpose, because I want a straight answer.

Oh and with that I gave my point - kids are succeptible to lies. You haven't repelled that argument in any way, so such a stalemate is non-existing in this manner.

I don't wish you an eternity of suffering, but you are asking for it here.

Yeah. I am. I don't expect to get into Heaven if these are his rules. But you cannot say he is fair to want us to believe something through faith and not through logic. How hard would that be? As MageGrayWolf has said:
If God really wanted us to believe in him then such evidence would go a long way to that goal. Such evidence would go a long way to convincing many skeptics.


And with that, if I am to perish in eternal fire to protect my beliefs? So be it.

I lol'ed, if I am wrong and there is a god I don't even want to go to heaven with that conceited prick *** hole. Check this out, I'm putting it in writing. "I am selling my soul to the devil, when I die he may feel free to do with me anything he likes. ANYTHING! Be it **** or any form of punishment. Maybe he will want to just hang out and chill because god is a **** who sent him underground. Anyways he now has my soul! And **** god! **** him!" Did you just **** your pants?

Whilst I do believe this is reasonable behaviour, considering. I don't think this is the right way to go. I am nearly certain that Vesper will not be swayed no matter what, on the Internet at least, and so this argument is made solely for us and observers.
You are not posing a good example

If you want, sit this argument out.

And on a side note I do see your reasoning because I was christian once myself. Too bad it was forced upon me by my family and once I got a mind of my own I was able to leave it behind and follow truth and reason. So I do see your point and they are not logical.

That is one thing Vesperbot lacks as well. He cannot empathize. I know I can't, I do the best I can, I do my best to understand peoples points and I can see why, but I am not going to put it in every post because it will take too long and will become incredibly cheesey in the end. My points are that the people who follow religion for the possibility that they will burn for all eternity, no man. Fight for your own beliefs. If you think it is right then even if he can do something like that I will not bow down and pray for a better tomorrow when I know me and others can make that happen if we try hard enough. Other points are being born into it, turning to religion after a rough life and etc. Often this can happen and this is the case many times. It has its benefits, but it is likely not the truth and does not support logic and reason. For that, I dislike religion.

But I like snakes....

Visible and blatant signs of God aren't apparent to anyone.

You know that's great reasoning for how God helps us, you know, since we have FAITH and all, right?

Mental gymnastics.

God is being morally flexible, it seems.
No but seriously, explain plz

Those people who do good blindly, while only intuitively sensing what's good, will see the light and watch their good flourish in them and their neighbors.

You're not seriously considering that a good thing?

The light of the Gospel is here to provide a means to convert from doing bad to doing good. If a person does half good, half bad, he'll be guided to doing all good and thus being saved.

If anything, we're the better ones. As I've said, logic and reason is actually a method in which we can understand how or why something happens, thus we understand more about ourselves, others and everything else. It is a method of understanding, and therefore is better than faith where you do not know his intentions or reasons (if he has any), and you just live your lives.
That's also lazy by the way.

You want evidence of people that were saved due to prayers of others? Ask Gloria Polo then, she was literally saved from entering Hell (but she wasn't yet allowed to enter Heaven, but instead guided to return here), she gives evidence of God showing her how many people prayed for her, and because of them she wasn't doomed.

1 Out of 7,000,000,000 people being shown the light?!
No. It could easily be a religious hallucination. It has happened.

But think about it, would you like your neighbors and children to love you only when you order them to? God wants us to find out He loves us and love Him in return, and as a result of our own free will's choice. But giving someone a free choice is also giving him a chance to mistake if he'll choose wrong. Such mistakes, if they are made against love, are named sins.

It's not entirely free. Plus no free will, logic or reason is better than having to burn in eternal hell for choosing the seemingly more probable path.
Actually, no it isn't. I'm gonna die believing this, most likely, and I cannot wait to see death for what it is. Why? I'm freakin' curious, seriously. If there is "nothingness" then I will just you know, chill out, break out a nothing of nothingness and nothing it. I wouldn't know about it.

If God is listening, which, obviously he must be if he is real, then give a clear cut sign. Not a vague, uncertain one. I want a bloody blatant one, having a car land from the sky saying "God is here" like... right now. Will make me tilted towards your argument.

Drop the keys, as well, please.



Also. Why punish us anyway? Why can't he just say "Okay, I'll leave you be." and just doesn't give hus a heavenly paradise. Others who do believe will.
Even then that is not logical because faith is not logical, therefore we lack rewards where those who went about the situation differently (and I would say wrongly) would be.
That itself is a punishment.

He does that regarding one's capabilities, experience, etc etc, which can't be embraced by a human mind.

Bad defense mechanism. You don't know that, I don't know that. And also I know probably many people who can do what you say is unable to be embraced by the human mind.

If you don't have a belief in God, you don't have steady ground, so when temptations come, you're likely to be dragged away

No, you're more likely to do bad with Religion. Why?
1) You can always repent.
2) You don't use logic or reason as much, anyway.
3) Temptations aren't always a bad thing.
4) We have more steady ground since we believe what we believe is true. That fact alone makes us more individual than any of you as we make sure we are correct and make sure we can show it in the proper fashion (one of Mage's videos would be great right about now).

A person who does good has steady ground below him which is based on good principles of behavior, and if he'd accept God as his cornerstone, he'll have an infallible ground.

Err... Good principles? We have proved many of them wrong, saying only God knows is unreasonable, and saying good behaviour which is doing what an unproven diety tells you to do is silly.

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack. And oh look, Vesper failed to comply with Mr.Walker. Pretty sure Mr.Walker told you to start using sources! Your opinions don't mean squat in a debate, and since you want everyone else to give YOU proof, then we want you to give US proof. So, come on, sources.

Please go over it more nicely. I don't want anyone on my side looking bad (I can't care much more for the other side) to other people, it looks less appealing.

Although hell yeah. We all have different personalities

Yes he did issue commands directly and I would call "worship and love me or burn in hell" being forced.

Especially since survival is any animal's (including humans) top priority.
Who can really deny that?

We do not see a higher then average difference between those who are prayer for and those who are not.

If you can, please provide a source

I believe you anyway, I don't believe much difference is made, but you know, some studies would go quite a way

people can do things without sky daddy. And he put the temptations there in the first place! It's like a hunt saving some animal from falling into the trap he himself set up. And don't give me that "it's the devil" bs since it's still God who let's him run wild.

Indeed.
I must ask Vesper, why don't you believe something else? Christianity, as we've provided proof against and evidence for, is not just and true. There is little you have to support your beliefs and Islam or Judaism (etc) seems like an equal path to go. Was you born into Christianity or what?

- H
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

okay, you have already disregarded the Bible, you disregard personal evidence, even cumulative like Fatima's miracle, some of you have also disregarded church tradition. I'm out of sources.

And Wolf1991, I've stopped giving arguments that are based on pure logic for the reason described above. I have started giving sophistic thoughts along with my personal beliefs, that are in line with the Church's teaching. I'm not saying they are proven logically, however if one would assume the Bible being true, he will eventually reach these conclusions. Yes, the discussion technically ran out of steam, as you have ran out of opponents, the only answers I'm waiting here are Einfach's within the dialogue where binary logic can be applied and where it can't. But these are crucial in my view of this situation, since if we'll decide that God indeed does not need to comply with binary logic, the further dispute based on logic and science won't lead the persons involved anywhere.

Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

I've stopped giving arguments that are based on pure logic for the reason described above

Say it again please, I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Also, the argument of binary logic is for me, anyway, this:
We use logic, and we exist, we have the capability of using it.
Logic is 100% a fair way of thinking of something, it is constructive, and it (as mentioned) helps you understand.
Even if God did not need logic, why put us in hell for being logical, and why make himself a "higher power" in such a way? If it were Jesus performing miracles I could believe it more, but that is not the case. If he did not apply to binary logic then I have nothing to do with him, since I have more reliable theories to trust.

okay, you have already disregarded the Bible, you disregard personal evidence, even cumulative like Fatima's miracle, some of you have also disregarded church tradition. I'm out of sources.

Quick thing, we haven't disregarded them, we just said that they should not be used, because they can't be trusted.
I can't say studies etc are either, but they are certainly more trustworthy, and are based on people and not things that could be someone compromised in one form or another.

The fact that the poeple you have involved follow religion makes them compromised. It's faith, it is not logic or reason.

- H
wolf1991
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wolf1991
3,437 posts
Farmer

So, since you have no reliable source, therefore we are debating your opinions, and as Walker said, it's almost as bad as politics. So...should we just lock this since you can provide no concrete proof to support anything?

Concrete means scientific.

vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

No. It could easily be a religious hallucination. It has happened.
It could be, if not accompanied by a complete heal of an inside-out burnt body. Once you can defy this, you can disprove the vision.
If God is listening, which, obviously he must be if he is real, then give a clear cut sign. Not a vague, uncertain one. I want a bloody blatant one, having a car land from the sky saying "God is here" like... right now. Will make me tilted towards your argument.
This was asked. Jesus said: "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." And the sign of Jonah was "Repent, since in 40 days Nineveh will be destroyed". They did repent, and God pardoned them from His wrath.
Why can't he just say "Okay, I'll leave you be." and just doesn't give hus a heavenly paradise.
You know what? If you reject Him, He will leave you be - alone, without Him to protect you from the devil. That is indeed Hell. Hell is not the place, it's a condition of no God.
I must ask Vesper, why don't you believe something else? Christianity, as we've provided proof against and evidence for, is not just and true. There is little you have to support your beliefs and Islam or Judaism (etc) seems like an equal path to go. Was you born into Christianity or what?
No I wasn't, at least I was baptized only at the age of 9, not being given information of what was that, and both my mother and father are unbelievers - can't say about atheists, you can assume so. Later on in my life I have met a girl who wasn't as pretty as one on the front page of Cosmopolitan, wasn't as strong in most areas of a human's life, but she was kind from her heart, and I loved her. But I have found that I don't have enough love for both her and my mother, who is a great mom, being however strict and harsh at times, but still she raised me in principles of responsibility and justness, so I started to seek where can I get me more love. By that time we were dating for about a year already. I don't remember when I have come with an idea to ask God for love, hearing somewhere "God is love", so I went to the only church that I was aware of, which was non-orthodox (an orthodox church in Moscow is a strange place, there are even anecdotes about Jesus not let in one), and I have found a cathedral of Roman Catholic church. Independently my girl has found the very same church in about the same time while searching for God herself - this is a separate story why she did that. There was a sermon for the Christian church to unite the next Saturday (25.01.09), we have decided to attend it. There were several protestant delegations, Lutherand, Anglicant, 7th-day Adventists, of course Catholic priests, Baptists, while Orthodox church declined the invitation. (There is some upstirring in there, and oecumenism is deemed heresy by many of them) There I have decided to pray "God indeed, let them churches be one, so I won't have to turn into other confession for marriage", but instead of doing this right now, He granted me a feeling of strong love so I can now express love for many people and not deplete. So I have learned that there is God indeed in that church, that I have walked the right direction. About two weeks later there was a catechisation group starting preparation for sacraments (aka learning what do we believe in), so we started attending there. We have proceeded onward since then, we were married and we now live as a happy believing couple.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

It could be, if not accompanied by a complete heal of an inside-out burnt body. Once you can defy this, you can disprove the vision.

Where did you get this information?
I don't think you lie, for the sake of lying. You said this, I think you believe in this, and I want to know how so.

Oh, and I know I am harsh in how I put things, but I feel no need in holding back as much as I could as sometimes bluntness shows the argument I am trying to show - I don't want to sugarcoat it.

This was asked. Jesus said: "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." And the sign of Jonah was "Repent, since in 40 days Nineveh will be destroyed". They did repent, and God pardoned them from His wrath.

This sounds like a reference to the Bible... :/

You know what? If you reject Him, He will leave you be - alone, without Him to protect you from the devil. That is indeed Hell. Hell is not the place, it's a condition of no God.

Why cannot he cast the Devil down (further down*) if he is all powerful? Leaving him be and sending those who do wrong to him is not a way to go about things.

I am happy you've "found a path" in your life Vesper. And this was one of the things I was talking about. Now, though, you speak of emotions, and nearly entirely emotions. I would like you to think past them now, not disregard them, but just see past it and try to see logic. In no way do I think you have to disbelieve in God, but looking at things from a purely reasonable and logical perspective compared to your "default" standpoint could be a great eye-opener.

I do sometimes trust my instinct. If I know there is likely no consequence.

I g2g, will talk more later

- H
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

God is being morally flexible, it seems.
No but seriously, explain plz


Mental gymnastics means the Christian is having to twist and contort their thoughts in order for them to make any sense with there preconceived beliefs.

For example, the preconceived belief is that God is all loving. When someone points out a part of the Bible were God is cruel the theist is forces to use mental gymnastics to explain or excuse the passage away so that God can still remain all loving in that theists mind.

okay, you have already disregarded the Bible, you disregard personal evidence, even cumulative like Fatima's miracle, some of you have also disregarded church tradition. I'm out of sources.

And Wolf1991, I've stopped giving arguments that are based on pure logic for the reason described above.


Non of that is based on logic.
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