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thepyro222

2,152 posts

Peasant

Posted March 29, '11 5:11am UTC

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.\r\n     I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

4,668 Replies

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Avorne

3,088 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 1:35pm UTC

Well, that might be true, the ultimate assertion though is still that a God exists - that one should be solved before we start talking about whether they were man-made or not.

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vesperbot

955 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 1:51pm UTC

hmm, if this will be resolved, then the man-made question will automatically be resolved, since God, if speaking about an infinite and omnipotent entity, cannot be made by man. Not even imagined, as human's mind is finite. Please don't dodge this issue any more.

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Highfire

3,033 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 2:19pm UTC

Shifting burden of proof, AGAIN? This is getting old. This time qwerty1011 has stated something questionable, and it's his turn to prove.

Yes, he did.
I disagree with his statement however, I put it how I intended it (I do not speak for Qwerty however).

You don't want debts to anyone for helping you out?

Because I don't believe in him. I think I pull through because of my own willpower, I don't want to be hand-held through my life, so if God is real, then please leave me be.

Maybe, though six-year-old sees his parents around and knows that they do a lot for him. We don't see God, but He does a real lot for us which we don't pay attention to.

Your second statement is questionable. I mean, let's be fair now, everything is related to something else in one form or another. Give two things apparent in real life, and very often there is (however indirect) a connection.

It's like the grandfather paradox, if I dressed up in a clown costume and went back in time, I could just stand there. A person would pass by, think I'm a weird person, stray off topic and act different once he's at his destination because his state of thought was compromised. Bam, people see he's acted differently compared to this timeline, they act different, so on so on.

Miniscule thing, huge difference, nevermind killing a bug.

Yes it can, but can pure mentality open eyes of the innate blind people?

Can you elaborate, please?

Are you asking that someone with pure mentality can heal their injured eyes?
Or are you speaking vague?

I owe a debt to no one, if God wants to claim his payment from me then he can come and prove His existence first, until then - any good I do is purely for the sake of my fellow man and myself not not for some deities debt.

I may also say that is another problem with Religion - people do it for God, not for other people or themselves. I'm all out for trying to repay a debt, but if you're going to help someone else the least you could do is do it for them first and foremost - not because someone told you to.

- H

[quote]Shifting burden of proof, AGAIN? This is getting old. This time qwerty1011 has stated something questionable, and it's his turn to prove. [/quote]\r\nYes, he did.\r\nI disagree with his statement however, I put it how I intended it (I do not speak for Qwerty however).\r\n\r\n[quote]You don't want debts to anyone for helping you out?[/quote]\r\nBecause I don't believe in him. I think I pull through because of my own willpower, I don't want to be hand-held through my life, so if God is real, then please leave me be.\r\n\r\n[quote]Maybe, though six-year-old sees his parents around and knows that they do a lot for him. We don't see God, but He does a real lot for us which we don't pay attention to. [/quote]\r\nYour second statement is questionable. I mean, let's be fair now, everything is related to something else in one form or another. Give two things apparent in real life, and very often there is (however indirect) a connection.\r\n\r\nIt's like the grandfather paradox, if I dressed up in a clown costume and went back in time, I could just stand there. A person would pass by, think I'm a weird person, stray off topic and act different once he's at his destination because his state of thought was compromised. Bam, people see he's acted differently compared to this timeline, they act different, so on so on.\r\n\r\nMiniscule thing, huge difference, nevermind killing a bug.\r\n\r\n[quote]Yes it can, but can pure mentality open eyes of the innate blind people?[/quote]\r\nCan you elaborate, please?\r\n\r\nAre you asking that someone with pure mentality can heal their injured eyes?\r\nOr are you speaking vague? :D\r\n\r\n[quote]I owe a debt to no one, if God wants to claim his payment from me then he can come and prove His existence first, until then - any good I do is purely for the sake of my fellow man and myself not not for some deities debt.[/quote]\r\nI may also say that is another problem with Religion - people do it for God, not for other people or themselves. I'm all out for trying to repay a debt, but if you're going to help someone else the least you could do is do it for them first and foremost - not because someone told you to.\r\n\r\n - H

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qwerty1011

554 posts

Peasant

Posted April 19, '11 2:58pm UTC

I wonder, what do you think about events what we call random? The source of why this random number appeared on a die in this particular throw, provided the thrower didn't intend on throwing that die to make a six, for example, is clearly unknown. But an unknown source can have its own source in God, and you'll never succeed proving otherwise. In short, a believer can safely claim that God did everything that ever happened in the world, and will be right. You can safely claim that you know some of the events, where they have originated and such, and you will also be right. What a believer cannot claim, is that God will do something particular for him if he'd do something for God, like praying - because the believer does not know if the thing he wants will do good to him and everyone else. An atheist can't claim this as well, because either he doesn't believe, or will turn into self-pride as "I have made God do things for me!", which is one of seven mortal sins, thus is bad for the atheist.

No, a believer can claim God did everything and be wrong until proven right. I could say the invisible pink unicorn made everything and everyone knows I'm not right.

This explains that God will be when a believer in some other religion than believing in Him will realise his failure. Yes, He will be there. But He will also look at that believer's deeds, and if they are in compliance with his conscience, He can grant him salvation. So that "fact" wasn't proven. I have read a passage from "The Chronicles of Narnia" about their good god Aslan, speaking about beliefs, like this: "If a person swears by Tash, but upholds the oath, he's swearing by me not knowing this, and I'll reward him. If a person swears by me, and betrays the oath, he has sworn by Tash, and she'll accept his servitude".

Basically if you follow what the bible says and do things like kill gays and kill people who try and convert you to another state of belief you will go to heaven since that's what god wants you to do. If you do things which our society considers moral you will go to hell because God belongs to a time with a different moral zeitgeist.

The claim in question is "all gods were made by men", and this has to be proven, not by theists this time.

No, the bible is a story about God which was written by men. This is the default state of being for a book. For a God not to have been made by men is special and requires proof to be believed. If I have to prove that Gods were made by men you have to prove the Invisible Pink Unicorn was made up and since She would kill all other Gods you must disprove her existence before your god can be proven.

Yes, he did.
I disagree with his statement however, I put it how I intended it (I do not speak for Qwerty however).

As I said earlier in this post you don't need to prove the Gods were made by men you need to prove they weren't since being made by men is what normally happens to create gods.

[quote]I wonder, what do you think about events what we call random? The source of why this random number appeared on a die in this particular throw, provided the thrower didn't intend on throwing that die to make a six, for example, is clearly unknown. But an unknown source can have its own source in God, and you'll never succeed proving otherwise. In short, a believer can safely claim that God did everything that ever happened in the world, and will be right. You can safely claim that you know some of the events, where they have originated and such, and you will also be right. What a believer cannot claim, is that God will do something particular for him if he'd do something for God, like praying - because the believer does not know if the thing he wants will do good to him and everyone else. An atheist can't claim this as well, because either he doesn't believe, or will turn into self-pride as "I have made God do things for me!", which is one of seven mortal sins, thus is bad for the atheist.[/quote]\r\n\r\nNo, a believer can claim God did everything and be wrong until proven right. I could say the invisible pink unicorn made everything and everyone knows I'm not right. \r\n\r\n[quote]This explains that God will be when a believer in some other religion than believing in Him will realise his failure. Yes, He will be there. But He will also look at that believer's deeds, and if they are in compliance with his conscience, He can grant him salvation. So that "fact" wasn't proven. I have read a passage from "The Chronicles of Narnia" about their good god Aslan, speaking about beliefs, like this: "If a person swears by Tash, but upholds the oath, he's swearing by me not knowing this, and I'll reward him. If a person swears by me, and betrays the oath, he has sworn by Tash, and she'll accept his servitude".[/quote]\r\n\r\nBasically if you follow what the bible says and do things like kill gays and kill people who try and convert you to another state of belief you will go to heaven since that's what god wants you to do. If you do things which our society considers moral you will go to hell because God belongs to a time with a different moral zeitgeist.\r\n\r\n[quote]The claim in question is "all gods were made by men", and this has to be proven, not by theists this time.[/quote]\r\n\r\nNo, the bible is a story about God which was written by men. This is the default state of being for a book. For a God not to have been made by men is special and requires proof to be believed. If I have to prove that Gods were made by men you have to prove the Invisible Pink Unicorn was made up and since She would kill all other Gods you must disprove her existence before your god can be proven.\r\n\r\n[quote]Yes, he did.\r\nI disagree with his statement however, I put it how I intended it (I do not speak for Qwerty however).[/quote]\r\n\r\nAs I said earlier in this post you don't need to prove the Gods were made by men you need to prove they weren't since being made by men is what normally happens to create gods.

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Highfire

3,033 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 3:54pm UTC

As I said earlier in this post you don't need to prove the Gods were made by men you need to prove they weren't since being made by men is what normally happens to create gods.

It's not proven, but that is evidence.

- H

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vesperbot

955 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 4:06pm UTC

Can you elaborate, please?

Are you asking that someone with pure mentality can heal their injured eyes?
Or are you speaking vague?

Jn 9:1-41, directly. I'm asking if someone, using only his mind, can open his eyes if he was blind from his birth.

I'm all out for trying to repay a debt, but if you're going to help someone else the least you could do is do it for them first and foremost - not because someone told you to.

First and foremost? Yes I say, still you first have to want to do something good for your neighbor, such things are not always under our own control. You might see a poorman, and say "Oh poor fellow" and just pass and forget about him, or you can talk to him, probably there's a way you can help him not just by giving him a penny. Or you might have been obscured by another walker and not ever see that poorman, or you could halt for a second and catch a kick, throwing your thoughts off the sight of suffering.

Your second statement is questionable. I mean, let's be fair now, everything is related to something else in one form or another.

It's mostly the matter of belief, as some connections can't ever be seen, like an anonymous love letter getting routed wrongly and saving a desperate girl from suicide. Who would say why this particular letter went the wrong way, and why not any other of millions, and why not to be no misdirection?

As I said earlier in this post you don't need to prove the Gods were made by men you need to prove they weren't since being made by men is what normally happens to create gods.

Misunderstanding of "some" versus "all". And who here said one can't prove a negative? "Some" gods are surely made by men, like E1337's shemale, or say Baal of Mojave people in 700s BCE. "All" gods to be made by men is to be proven.

No, a believer can claim God did everything and be wrong until proven right. I could say the invisible pink unicorn made everything and everyone knows I'm not right.

Okay, you believe in an invisible pink unicorn. Are there more than one?

Basically if you follow what the bible says and do things like kill gays and kill people who try and convert you to another state of belief you will go to heaven since that's what god wants you to do.

In case of Christianity, this is wrong, as Jesus Christ explicitly forbid stoning of a woman caught in adultery, by the reason that no one is sinless. We therefore can't condemn others even using the Bible, because first and foremost commandment is "Love God with all that you are" and "love your neighbor as you love yourself". If you love to kill others, then you should love suiciding, and even those who commit this do this out of despair.

[quote]Can you elaborate, please?\r\n\r\nAre you asking that someone with pure mentality can heal their injured eyes?\r\nOr are you speaking vague? :D[/quote]Jn 9:1-41, directly. I'm asking if someone, using only his mind, can open his eyes if he was blind from his birth.\r\n[quote]I'm all out for trying to repay a debt, but if you're going to help someone else the least you could do is do it for them first and foremost - not because someone told you to.[/quote]First and foremost? Yes I say, still you first have to want to do something good for your neighbor, such things are not always under our own control. You might see a poorman, and say "Oh poor fellow" and just pass and forget about him, or you can talk to him, probably there's a way you can help him not just by giving him a penny. Or you might have been obscured by another walker and not ever see that poorman, or you could halt for a second and catch a kick, throwing your thoughts off the sight of suffering.\r\n[quote]Your second statement is questionable. I mean, let's be fair now, everything is related to something else in one form or another.[/quote]It's mostly the matter of belief, as some connections can't ever be seen, like an anonymous love letter getting routed wrongly and saving a desperate girl from suicide. Who would say why this particular letter went the wrong way, and why not any other of millions, and why not to be no misdirection? \r\n[quote]As I said earlier in this post you don't need to prove the Gods were made by men you need to prove they weren't since being made by men is what normally happens to create gods.[/quote]Misunderstanding of "some" versus "all". And who here said one can't prove a negative? "Some" gods are surely made by men, like E1337's shemale, or say Baal of Mojave people in 700s BCE. "All" gods to be made by men is to be proven.\r\n[quote]No, a believer can claim God did everything and be wrong until proven right. I could say the invisible pink unicorn made everything and everyone knows I'm not right. [/quote]Okay, you believe in an invisible pink unicorn. Are there more than one?\r\n[quote]Basically if you follow what the bible says and do things like kill gays and kill people who try and convert you to another state of belief you will go to heaven since that's what god wants you to do.[/quote]In case of Christianity, this is wrong, as Jesus Christ explicitly forbid stoning of a woman caught in adultery, by the reason that no one is sinless. We therefore can't condemn others even using the Bible, because first and foremost commandment is "Love God with all that you are" and "love your neighbor as you love yourself". If you love to kill others, then you should love suiciding, and even those who commit this do this out of despair.

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MageGrayWolf

9,476 posts

Farmer

Posted April 19, '11 4:12pm UTC

The claim in question is "all gods were made by men", and this has to be proven, not by theists this time.

Your right. So are there any gods with an autobiography that wasn't written or handed down orally by a human? (Inspired works not counting as a human still wrote it.)

hmm, if this will be resolved, then the man-made question will automatically be resolved, since God, if speaking about an infinite and omnipotent entity, cannot be made by man. Not even imagined, as human's mind is finite. Please don't dodge this issue any more.

We have plenty of made up characters in our fiction. Q from Star Trek, Mr.Mxyzptlk from DC comics, Many of the other gods you don't believe in as well.

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vesperbot

955 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 4:27pm UTC

So are there any gods with an autobiography that wasn't written or handed down orally by a human? (Inspired works not counting as a human still wrote it.)

The Decalogue, original.

We have plenty of made up characters in our fiction. Q from Star Trek, Mr.Mxyzptlk from DC comics, Many of the other gods you don't believe in as well.

Have you misread my request? I'm speaking that if you would imagine a God, and that God will happen to be the real one, you will limit God, thus your imagination will be false. (BTW 5000 posts for you MGW - my, my )

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Highfire

3,033 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 4:33pm UTC

directly. I'm asking if someone, using only his mind, can open his eyes if he was blind from his birth.

Honestly? No idea, but I fail to see the point of this question

"All" gods to be made by men is to be proven.

I believe it has sufficient evidence - there is no proof of God being real, however for the sake of having no argument we will leave this for a later date as there is not enough evidence to confirm either side.

Q from Star Trek,

Was he the magical ish one?
If so, then the actor who played him was also on Stargate.
If not, then I'm sorely mistaken lol.

as Jesus Christ explicitly forbid stoning of a woman caught in adultery,

Er..

You rely on Jesus to dictate your argument?

This is an honest question because right now I don't think you have more morality than the Bible, if it were me (and obviously you are not me) then I would point out that I agree with the ethical aspects behind this.
Right now the quotes and your opinions seem to be one thing pretending to be two.

- H

[quote]directly. I'm asking if someone, using only his mind, can open his eyes if he was blind from his birth. [/quote]\r\nHonestly? No idea, but I fail to see the point of this question :)\r\n\r\n[quote]"All" gods to be made by men is to be proven. [/quote]\r\nI believe it has sufficient evidence - there is no proof of God being real, however for the sake of having no argument we will leave this for a later date as there is not enough evidence to confirm either side.\r\n\r\n[quote]Q from Star Trek,[/quote]\r\nWas he the magical ish one?\r\nIf so, then the actor who played him was also on Stargate.\r\nIf not, then I'm sorely mistaken lol.\r\n\r\n[quote]as Jesus Christ explicitly forbid stoning of a woman caught in adultery,[/quote]\r\nEr..\r\n\r\nYou rely on Jesus to dictate your argument? \r\n\r\nThis is an honest question because right now I don't think you have more morality than the Bible, if it were me (and obviously you are not me) then I would point out that I agree with the ethical aspects behind this.\r\nRight now the quotes and your opinions seem to be one thing pretending to be two.\r\n\r\n - H

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vesperbot

955 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 4:55pm UTC

Honestly? No idea, but I fail to see the point of this question

There was evidence of a human being cured from blindness around ~30AD by Jesus. The Bible passage given explains the details. The point of this question is to make room for miracles or alike events in medicine. The one saying "mentality affects body state" claims that all healings beyond medicine capability can be explained by mental issues, like the person seriously wished to be healed and he healed self.

You rely on Jesus to dictate your argument?

This is an honest question because right now I don't think you have more morality than the Bible, if it were me (and obviously you are not me) then I would point out that I agree with the ethical aspects behind this.

Yes, but not only Jesus, but also the Catholic Church states that we must comply with morality given by this act. The Church teaches that all the punishments of the Old testament have been rendered obsolete by the primary commandment given by Jesus to His disciples: "Love one another as I love you". Since we believe in Jesus to be Son of God, and all what Bible has to say about divine nature of God as Trinity, and given the example of Jesus going to sacrifice His life on the cross for our redemption, we have to follow this example, that is, if choosing God or life, we have to choose God, and in usual circumstances, to make deeds of love to our neighbors. Therefore we can't condemn anyone, because true love never condemns, but forgives. God didn't say "Be just as I am just" but "Love...", because we can't be totally just in our decisions. So we are to leave all the justice to Him, at least for the soul. We have earthly laws for the order between us, and these only have to comply with God's commandments, so to not tempt people to break laws in order to fulfill God's commandments. Civil laws included.

[quote]Honestly? No idea, but I fail to see the point of this question :)[/quote]There was evidence of a human being cured from blindness around ~30AD by Jesus. The Bible passage given explains the details. The point of this question is to make room for miracles or alike events in medicine. The one saying "mentality affects body state" claims that all healings beyond medicine capability can be explained by mental issues, like the person seriously wished to be healed and he healed self.\r\n[quote]You rely on Jesus to dictate your argument?\r\n\r\nThis is an honest question because right now I don't think you have more morality than the Bible, if it were me (and obviously you are not me) then I would point out that I agree with the ethical aspects behind this.[/quote]Yes, but not only Jesus, but also the Catholic Church states that we must comply with morality given by this act. The Church teaches that all the punishments of the Old testament have been rendered obsolete by the primary commandment given by Jesus to His disciples: "Love one another as I love you". Since we believe in Jesus to be Son of God, and all what Bible has to say about divine nature of God as Trinity, and given the example of Jesus going to sacrifice His life on the cross for our redemption, we have to follow this example, that is, if choosing God or life, we have to choose God, and in usual circumstances, to make deeds of love to our neighbors. Therefore we can't condemn anyone, because true love never condemns, but forgives. God didn't say "Be just as I am just" but "Love...", because we can't be totally just in our decisions. So we are to leave all the justice to Him, at least for the soul. We have earthly laws for the order between us, and these only have to comply with God's commandments, so to not tempt people to break laws in order to fulfill God's commandments. Civil laws included.

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SazerX

38 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 5:07pm UTC

Go Christianity

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MageGrayWolf

9,476 posts

Farmer

Posted April 19, '11 5:12pm UTC

Was he the magical ish one?
If so, then the actor who played him was also on Stargate.
If not, then I'm sorely mistaken lol.

John de Lancie, he played Colonel Frank Simmons on Star Gate SG-1. Looking at imdb he also did the voice of agent Darkbootie on Invader Zim.

There was evidence of a human being cured from blindness around ~30AD by Jesus. The Bible passage given explains the details.

The Bible says so so it happened, it happened because the Bible says so.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/circularreasoning.gif

The point of this question is to make room for miracles or alike events in medicine.

making room for something unproven makes no sense what so ever.

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vesperbot

955 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 5:55pm UTC

The Bible says so so it happened, it happened because the Bible says so.

Who here said that the Bible is a historical book? Sure enough you can't find other evidence since all people died already. (Except Jesus who resurrected from the dead and lives onward)

The point of this question is to make room for miracles or alike events in medicine.

making room for something unproven makes no sense what so ever.

Making room for something unproven has sense of opening people's minds to searching other causes, at the very least. At most it can open someone's heart to plead for God to grant him something for the good of all. Or grant that to someone else.

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Einfach

1,448 posts

Nomad

Posted April 19, '11 6:07pm UTC

2.8e-4516

To lower this number a bit, it could have been 15000 or 30000 or 70000 out of millions of people in the general area. Meaning a decrease of (6*10^6) ^ 15000 or 30000 or 70000. This cancels out the e-4516 stat.

And also the conspiracy theories about it seem much more likely.

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MageGrayWolf

9,476 posts

Farmer

Posted April 19, '11 6:14pm UTC

Who here said that the Bible is a historical book? Sure enough you can't find other evidence since all people died already. (Except Jesus who resurrected from the dead and lives onward)

You said the Bible was evidence of someone being cured of blindness. That's no more evidence of such an event then Harry Potter is evidence of the existence of Hogwarts.

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