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Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
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This means I can say the same about any book of yours, regardless its contents. This discussion ends with a stalemate.
Only those which have not been tested and verified. Certainly one wouldn't consider the Physician's Desk Reference, a textbook on clinical pharmacology, or the textbook of botany 'fairy tales'. And why is that you ask? Because they contain observed, tested, verified, and proven information. That is the fundamental difference between a biology text and the Bible.
Well then, there are goospels of John and Matthew both depicting several miracles in correct sequence (and I'm not taking Mark or Luke along with Matthew, as these are synoptics with Matthew, meaning they share the source). Do you say both of these are completely fictitious?
Yes, in fact, I would say they are both fictitious.
Well, if there will be evidence that these "local" floods come to be in say the same year all over the world, could it be counted as a global flood? I say yes, in this case.
Firstly, no it still would not be global flooding. Secondly there is no such evidence. Flooding is actually a natural cycle, and it is a highly localized event and it doesn't happen everywhere at once.
As far as I can see, the position of most atheists with whom I was able to speak is "No, there is no God at all" without any "don't know"s. The position of many believers is "I believe, and I know, but I don't know enough to prove God to you". I can't say about "most" believers, as they vary by religion, and some will just kill me outright should I speak.
Well to be perfectly honest anyone who outright claims one way or the other is speaking of things which are unknown and likely unknowable. Either way is intellectually dishonest. One may believe whatever they like, but the simple fact remains that no one knows and anyone who claims to is either delusional or is a liar.
We cannot say that there are or are not deities until we come to an accepted classification on what would make something a deity AND devise a methodology for testing for them. If such a thing occurred then, and only then, could we review the results of said testing and determine whether or not deities exist. Until that time the only honest answer remains "I do not know".
Well to be perfectly honest anyone who outright claims one way or the other is speaking of things which are unknown and likely unknowable. Either way is intellectually dishonest. One may believe whatever they like, but the simple fact remains that no one knows and anyone who claims to is either delusional or is a liar.
Is this implying that there is no reason to believe in something simply because we do not have 100% evidence of being true?
Is this implying that there is no reason to believe in something simply because we do not have 100% evidence of being true?
Not at all. Believe in whatever you like, just don't go around trying to convince everyone that your imaginary friend is real unless you have some pretty hefty evidence to support it. And certainly don't be surprised if, when you do try to convince people without evidence to support your position, they don't buy it.
My position on god is simple, either he does not exist or if he does, he is the most evil thing ever and should not be followed.
Saying God exists, the Bible would be true, correct? If you took your time to read the Bible God grants us an eternal life in Heaven if we follow the path of Jesus. Allowing us to be alive right now, and the given power of free will are things that God permitted us. I would call this good, not evil. He had the choice to make us mindless drones that can only follow him, which would be evil, but there are plenty of people who just don't care about God.
Think about it this way, I believe that Aitheists think they die, and that's the end of it correct? No down side or good side. But what if you were wrong? Following Christ would ensure you a life in Heaven.
Not at all. Believe in whatever you like, just don't go around trying to convince everyone that your imaginary friend is real unless you have some pretty hefty evidence to support it
Definitely, but then again this must apply to you too. I know you did not start the discussion, but if you say you believe that many parts of the Bible are fictitious, hefty evidence for me to believe that also would be needed.
Definitely, but then again this must apply to you too. I know you did not start the discussion, but if you say you believe that many parts of the Bible are fictitious, hefty evidence for me to believe that also would be needed.
Certainly. And what areas would you like to address?
A god who inflicts cancer on toddlers, let the sheperds of his flock **** small boys, let people like hitler come into existence, is not a god who should be followed, neigh, it is a god who should be castigated and his followers rebuked.
God entitled the world to be perfect, in which indeed failed because of the man in which he created. Cancer, abuse, evil leaders, all in which could have been done without if man had not decieved God.
Certainly. And what areas would you like to address?
The Gospels of John and Matthew.
but since he knows the past the present and the future he also knew that men would have ruined the world, so why did he create something that would destroy the beauty of his other creations? Your whole argument doesn't make sense if you consider that god is omniscient, thus he know the consequences of his actions.
This means I can say the same about any book of yours, regardless its contents. This discussion ends with a stalemate.
Really got to stop calling stalemate when there isn't one.
Well then, there are goospels of John and Matthew both depicting several miracles in correct sequence (and I'm not taking Mark or Luke along with Matthew, as these are synoptics with Matthew, meaning they share the source).
As each Gospel was written they likely influenced the next adding more and more fantastic events.
Saying God exists, the Bible would be true, correct? If you took your time to read the Bible God grants us an eternal life in Heaven if we follow the path of Jesus.
Ever read the parts detailing what Heaven is like?
I would call this good, not evil. He had the choice to make us mindless drones that can only follow him, which would be evil, but there are plenty of people who just don't care about God.
Which seems to be what he wants us to do.
Think about it this way, I believe that Aitheists think they die, and that's the end of it correct? No down side or good side. But what if you were wrong? Following Christ would ensure you a life in Heaven.
There is more then just these two options so this is a false dichotomy.
Your whole argument doesn't make sense if you consider that god is omniscient, thus he know the consequences of his actions.
Rather the consequences of mankinds actions. God allowed us another chance for repentance, and those who have decided to follow Christ will earn highest of all. Those who have turned their backs on God will deem an eternity in Hell.
Rather the consequences of mankinds actions. God allowed us another chance for repentance, and those who have decided to follow Christ will earn highest of all. Those who have turned their backs on God will deem an eternity in Hell.
Since he's omniscient, when he created men he knew perfectly how many people would have followed Christ, and how many would have turned their backs to god, so basically he created something knowing that he will have to burn in hell a good part of it. There is a single explanation for this, sadism.
God entitled the world to be perfect, in which indeed failed because of the man in which he created. Cancer, abuse, evil leaders, all in which could have been done without if man had not decieved God.
Humans didn't create cancer nor many of the other aliments we can be inflicted with.
Rather the consequences of mankinds actions. God allowed us another chance for repentance, and those who have decided to follow Christ will earn highest of all. Those who have turned their backs on God will deem an eternity in Hell.
That just sounds like a scare tactic for the people who already buy into it to keep them in line. These sort of tactics hold no weight to those who don't believe in any of it.
Humans didn't create cancer nor many of the other aliments we can be inflicted with.
True, in a way, there was nothing of harm when God created the world. God warned of the evil that would come from disobeying him. It would be as hating your parents because they told you not to steal from the cookie jar, and if you did you would get punished, then you do steal from the cookie jar and you whine, saying how evil they were. This would be humans fault.
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