These will look very similar for E1337 since we've already had this debate, but again for the sake of MrWalker since he doesn't believe I've already "studied" on this I will validate my points again.
According to a 2001 book by Historian Michael Rissman, Hitler never received any of the sacraments beyond Baptism; as such, he never validly professed faith with or membership in the Catholic Church. It would have been illogical to excommunicate someone who never joined the community of Catholics.
Pope John XI issued an encyclical "Mit brennender Sorge" that condemned Nazism in 1937. It was written in German, rather than Latin, specifically to address it to the German people. Pope Pius XI in 1941 issued another encyclical "Humani Generis Unitas" that again condemned Nazism, the euthanasia of persons with birth defects, and the anti-Semitism of the Nazi party.
German Catholics may have felt torn in their allegiances; on the one hand they opposed the godlessness of Nazism; on the other they feared the godlessness of Communism. Their protests following Pius XI's letter may have left the Nazi masters to conclude that Catholicism was dangerous - thus more than 300 Catholic priests were executed at Dachau, while all monasteries in Germany were shut down. This substantially limited what could be done through the Church in Germany. A Catholic resistence movement - The White Rose - was formed, but all leadership were executed by the Gestapo.
Excommunication was used against political leaders as an ultimate threat from the 8th through the 14th centuries. As the power of the Church waned, it has since been used primarily against clergy as a way of connoting that their teachings are schismatic and heterodox.
I cannot find anyone who was excommunicated posthumously - it might be possible to find that, after one has died, evidence emerges to indicate there was a substantial break with the Church.
Among those excommunicated: Juan Peron Irish Republicans who engaged in arson, kidnapping or murder Napoleon Bonaparte Crusaders who attacked the Christian port of Zara
Excommunication from the Catholic Church does not always have to be a public announcement.
Getting an answer from the Vatican requires knowing who precisely to contact. At the same time, since the publication of "Hitler's Pope" the Vatican libraries are probably tired of getting letters in this regard and so may simply disregard them, considering them to be naysayers (such as yourself) looking to pick a fight.
Hitler left the Church on his own accord Again it's illogical to excommunicate someone who never joined the community. The point is not valid.
According to a 2001 book by Historian Michael Rissman, Hitler never received any of the sacraments beyond Baptism; as such, he never validly professed faith with or membership in the Catholic Church. It would have been illogical to excommunicate someone who never joined the community of Catholics.
He was baptised as a catholic, and stayed a member of that religious community for the rest of his life. It is wrong to say he never was a part, he indeed was. He simply didn't take it as far as many others.
But he seemed to have a schizophrenic attitude towards the church, dependend of who he was talking to: sometimes he said he was against the church, sometimes he said the church was a necessary element for the people to keep them satisfied. That said, this only concerns the church as an institute; this said nothing about whether he had faith in something or not.
I found an interesting quote though. Concerning the SS- mysticism that, apparently, Himmler wanted to establish, he said (from the memories of one of his confidants):
âWelcher Unsinn! Jetzt sind wir endlich so weit, in eine Zeit zu kommen, die alle Mystik hinter sich gelassen hat, und nun faengt der von vorne an. Da koennten wir auch gleich bei der Kirche bleiben. Die hat wenigstens Tradition. Der Gedanke, daà ich einmal zum âSS-Heiligenâ gemacht werde! Stellen Sie sich vor! Ich wuerde mich im Grabe umdrehen! â
â" Hitler, nach den Erinnerungen Albert Speers
This I would roughly translate to: "Such nonsense! Now we're finally ready to pass on to a time that has left all mysticism behind, and then that guy starts over from the beginning! We could as well keep the church; at least it has tradition. Thinking that I will once be made a 'SS-saint'! Just picture that! I'd turn over in my grave!
- Hitler, from the memories of Albert Speer"
So what? He wasn't a religious zealot. But if you ask me, I'm sure he secretly was a deist. Anyway, what would it change if he really was atheist? He was insane, and atheism had nothing to do with his cruelty.
As an adult, Hitler often spoke positively about Christianity, and about how Jesus Christ was an Aryan (the race of humans Hitler believed to be superior). The following statements have been attributed to him:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Adolf Hitler from Mein Kampf
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter." - Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on 12 April 1922
"It matters not whether these weapons of ours are humane: if they gain us our freedom, they are justified before our conscience and before our God." - Adolf Hitler, Munich 01 Aug. 1923
"I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence." - Adolf Hitler, speech July 5, 1944
He always claims to be a Catholic. Why would an atheist claim to be a catholic?
Because he was a member of the catholic community. I also guess because he couldn't afford to be at war with the church too, because he needed the church to 1. keep the sceptists calm and 2. add a cause (a religious one) to his fight.
Hitler was an avid anti-atheist - In a 1933 speech he declared: âWe have... undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.â
My point being is that he was not a practicing member of the religion. He used the influence to whom he spoke to, to manipulate himself in control. Do you think the Vatican really wanted to face a powerful leader who had already threatened and killed millions? And in the same essence post-Tripartite Act Germany was fighting a two front war, did they really need to fight the church too? He had his own twisted views and constorted to what he thought was right, but that in no part was that of the Christian religion.
I can say I'm a neurosurgeon like my wife, but does that really make me a neurosurgeon? Not in the least.
Adolf may have justified his actions through his brain (it is natural), but he did use religion as his fallback. If the Vatican did not refuse Hitler if they thought he was wrong, they have even less integrity than I thought.
Also, Germany lost the war in the end, the support of the Church (if they infact supported them) is terrible, to say the least.
What it boils down to with Hitler is that he claimed to be ardently anti-atheist, claimed divine guidance, and claimed he felt he was doing the work of the Christian Lord. Now, whether or not he was a truly devout or practicing member of the religion in his private life it is hard to tell.
Perhaps he simply made these statements to gain support for his movement, to be popular with the overwhelmingly religious population. Regardless, though, one must admit that religion was a driving force in his actions, his words, and in the popular support for his movement.
If ANY group, either religious or atheistic, can be associated with Hitler and his actions the only one that actually fits with his claims is that of a religious organization. Repeatedly, though, people want to claim Hitler as an atheist and attribute his atrocities to atheism, and that simply is not correct. And again, regardless of whether or not he was a religious man in his personal life he used religion as justification and support for his ideology.
he used religion as justification and support for his ideology.
My entire point is not that he didn't use Religion Walker, even I contend that, it would be moronic not to. The point I'm making is that though he used the religion, it doesn't mean he was not a non-believer. It boils down to - he commited the atrocities, he then used propoganda and religion as his so called "flame shield". It's demented but doesn't mean that the Vatican or even the Cristian Faith associated with him. He acted independently, through a constorted, bizzare ideology that wasn't supported by the faith.
My entire point is not that he didn't use Religion Walker, even I contend that, it would be moronic not to. The point I'm making is that though he used the religion, it doesn't mean he was not a non-believer.
If he was in fact a non-believer then he went to great pains, in both his public and private life, to look like he believed in God. Certainly he had conflicting ideas, but I would be surprised if someone with his forms of psychosis DIDN'T have them.
We can only use what he said to determine his ideas, and at the very least we can say for certain that he was not an atheist. He had many religious views, sometimes seeming to be reminiscent of deism, at other times being Christian in nature, and even waxing occult for periods of time.
Hitler, while perhaps not fully Christian, was most definitely someone who believed in some sort of God who gave guidance and intervened in human affairs.
Redhead, the only people who think hitler wasn't a believer are apologetics like you.
Not at all. Just over defensive atheist who don't want their proper views to be tainted because they're all so perfect. Yes Walker that's exactly what he did, he had to go through great lengths and it gained him power in the end.
The truth is in the pudding boys. Take it or leave.
