ForumsWEPRGod's Compromised Choice Belief System

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redbedhead
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redbedhead
341 posts
Nomad

I've decided to devote a thread to the belief system in which I believe God works on.

Let's begin on what God is all about:
1rst we will look at choice. As many of you will argue that religion is something that once you get into it, you will simply blindly follow and you are given a ball and chain and there is absolutely no choice whatsoever. That's simply not the case. I'm sure you know as well as I do that there are extremist out there, but nonetheless God created us with freewill. Otherwise there wouldn't be any atheist to go haywire on this thread after they have read it. We as humans have a choice in which we set our faith (or lack thereof) our morals, our beliefs, and so on and so forth. God didn't want robots without any choice. He wanted something you could make that he could love him and something intelligent enough to love him back.

2nd we will look at faith. Religion is based completely on faith. Hebrews 11 is all about faith (NIV translation)

Verse 1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Verse 3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at Godâs command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Verse 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

In part of God not wanting robots he decided to make life more interesting. He wants us to love him through faith and nothing more. This way he can understand how real your love for him truly is.

Now let's delve into Compromised Choice shall we.
Atheism is the lack of faith of a divine being. Athiest prefer backed evidence compared to stories or biased sources. They need to see to believe contrary to Hebrews 11:1. But why would that be contrary to God?

Why would an omnipotent being need to be seen only through faith?

Because remember the first thing about God - he is all about choice. Therefor revealing himself outright would compromise this. Let me put it in a case of a scenario.
If right now, wherever you are, God appeared right in front of you. He called you by name, then snapped his fingers and all of a sudden an elephant was created next to you, or he healed someone right there in front of you.
Better yet let's say he did it at an international science convention where it was broadcast all over the world. Now God is there preforming miracles for the entire scientific community to see. Every single scientist in the world could run any number of tests that there is and get positive results that standing right there is indeed an omnipotent being.

So given that scenario, you have all the evidence you need. You have seen with your own eyes along with the rest of the world that God exist. You have all the scientific evidence in the world to back it as well. What reason would you have to NOT believe God existed? There would be miniscule reasoning to not believe in God.

Now this brings us to the second part of the Compromised Choice system. Faith. If you could see God right there in front of you, there would be no reason to have faith. You could love him or not but either way that love would be superficial. If you knew you could go to heaven or hell just by loving him there would be little choice in choosing a path because the only logical thing would be to believe in him.

God does not want to work on human terms because he has no need to. He gave the guidelines for what he would like for us to do and he has kept those guidelines for thousands of years and we continue to have a choice in what we do. But there is logical reasoning behind him never showing himself in the first place because he refuses to compromise his original intentions.
  • 142 Replies
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Nomad

Well, using purely logical statements or reductio ad absurdum.

I have a problem with presenting my belief for the atheists here, they use the only trick to avoid direct questions, "you can't prove a negative" and a BoP argument, effectively stating that "God does not exist" is a safe assumption, thus a null hypothesis. Seeing you debating this over with MGW, and IMO winning this, I start to wonder could it possibly be that one can successfully disprove the entire use of "safe assumption" here. For me, it's a lot safer to assume that God exists, and do according to how I understand God's will, so even if there would be no God, I will live a life of a helper. They however say this be a Pascal's wager, and take the opposite side - I wonder why tho, since if they lose their bet, they'll be in Hell, in case I lose my bet, I'll be at par with them, so I'm not losing a thing! (I have met God on my way, but they also say this be a personal experience, and too subjective to take as true, and I can't imagine a life without God now, so I can't see what happens in their heads, how do they build their system of values etc, the only thing I see from them is blind ignorance.)

MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

Sure, but the reason I don't like applying null hypothesis to assertions as to the existence/non-existence of God is that at least IMO, no specific phenomena has any relevance to &quotroof" that God does/does not exist.


You can have specific phenomena that would be relevant to God existing. However we don't have any verifiable examples of that phenomena. So the religious, instead of accepting their believes could be wrong they come up with excuses like in the OP.

I wonder is it possible to objectively deduce that the statement "God does not exist is a null hypothesis" is false?


Yes, for example God actually showing up and going "Here I am" would falsify "God does not exist".

I have a problem with presenting my belief for the atheists here, they use the only trick to avoid direct questions, "you can't prove a negative"


It's not a trick that's how it works. You made a claim that God exists, we don't believe you. So it's up to you to provide the evidence backing that claim up. You don't have any evidence then don't be surprised when we don't believe you.

I can't imagine a life without God now, so I can't see what happens in their heads, how do they build their system of values etc, the only thing I see from them is blind ignorance.


There are a number of ways to build a value system, for example it could be based on what is beneficial to our species. How is it ignorant to not believe something that is unverified? If it's ignorant to not believe something that has no evidence then it's ignorant to not believe in fairies, the Easter bunny, Santa, Thor, Zeus, or any other thing that has no objective verifiable evidence for it. If your going to say this only applies to God then your just special pleading.
master565
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master565
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Nomad

I am god, I don't have to prove I am, you have to prove I am not.


You need 100,000 AP to be God.
master565
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master565
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Nomad

prove I don't have it.


Prove that you don't have it.
master565
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master565
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Nomad

Welcome to the circular logic!



WOW! It's really nice here. I think I'll stay.
Strop
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Strop
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Bard

You can have specific phenomena that would be relevant to God existing.


since you're the one making this claim, by your own argument the onus is on you to substantiate it. what kind of specific phenomena would you say is relevant to god existing?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

since you're the one making this claim, by your own argument the onus is on you to substantiate it. what kind of specific phenomena would you say is relevant to god existing?


Well like I said God actually showing himself would work. I had a whole list of things that I would accept as evidence but I can't find the good post of it.

It was basically a cleaned up version of this one. (7th post down)
http://armorgames.com/community/thread/7315679/christianity-ftw/page/32

I was wondering if you don't regard "doesn't exist until proven otherwise" when presented with the claim of "this existing" then what is? We don't even have to relate it to the situation of that thing being God.
Strop
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Strop
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Bard

i'm not interested enough in this discussion to wade in on your list of things to do more than to idly speculate on how you would react to examples of some of the items, as I am aware that claims of prophecy fulfilled in an independent and historically verifiable manner are plentiful, but i'm not interested enough in those to examine them. either way from my perspective, that kind of question is best answered by you, and you alone.

to me, 'god existing'

Strop
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Strop
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Bard

oops, hit submit by accident (i'm on my phone )

to me, as you may have guessed, the question of the christian (or most monotheistic) god(s) existing is a special case, as the way they are presented is incompatible with my metaphysics. I acknowledge that one could argue that since the notion entails fallacious argumentation, it is by definition false. as I said earlier, I choose not to do this because all it results in is time wasted: as much as one would like predicate logic and evidence based practice to prevail, you are none the richer for having convinced yourself and the already fellow converted that you have falsified the unfalsifiable.

the notion of the christian god is not relevant to phenomena because it transcends them, and the only points you score are against people who have not reconciled this with the arbitrarily human need to rationalise. you'd make no impact against people like albert einstein, who would have accepted that belief in a god required an irrational acceptance beyond the scope of their commentary on the observable universe.

vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Nomad

Yes.
"I don't have a ball in my pocket."
Turn pockets out, there is a ball.
Turn universe inside out, and then check.
I am god, I don't have to prove I am, you have to prove I am not.
That's easy, I'll just wait until you die.
It's not a trick that's how it works.
You have made a statement that God does not exist, now you base on this, FAIL sometimes, but still you say you don't need to prove your initial hypothesis.
How is it ignorant to not believe something that is unverified?
It's ignorance because your verification methods are unable to verify both your statement and mine. So, you are using insufficient methods, and even if provided supportive evidence, even such an OBJECTIVE one as miracle of Lanciano, since there was nothing but objects involved in scientific investigations of 1970 and 1971, and enough evidence is provided that the objects under inverstigation were there fore more than 1200 years straight, you still remain ignorant.
Yes, for example God actually showing up and going "Here I am" would falsify "God does not exist".
Okay, God DID EXACTLY THAT. Once, already. So, "God exists" is a null hypothesis. Now prove your statements.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Nomad

I am aware that claims of prophecy fulfilled in an independent and historically verifiable manner are plentiful, but i'm not interested enough in those to examine them. either way from my perspective, that kind of question is best answered by you, and you alone.
Probably, but if I do this, they say "you're not an authority, so your claims are unbacked" and stop there. Pitiful I say. MGW does not want to try searching for any of these, since he shares your position to some extent.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

as I am aware that claims of prophecy fulfilled in an independent and historically verifiable manner are plentiful


Unfortunately they don't meet the criteria outlined. The are often very vague or the result of being self fulfilling and among a shotgun tactic of hit or miss predicting.

This is more overt, but is a prime example of how most prophecies are "fulfilled".
http://armorgames.com/community/thread/7552210/revelation-13-osama-bin-laden

to me, as you may have guessed, the question of the christian (or most monotheistic) god(s) existing is a special case, as the way they are presented is incompatible with my metaphysics.


Okay. I don't really see why it should be treated as a special case.

the notion of the christian god is not relevant to phenomena because it transcends them


When it comes to verifying the claim is true then god does not transcend this, as much as some may want it to in order to side step such requirements.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

It's ignorance because your verification methods are unable to verify both your statement and mine.


It's up to you to provide the verification. Your making a claim, I'm just simply not accepting that claim at face value.

and even if provided supportive evidence, even such an OBJECTIVE one as miracle of Lanciano,


It's already been pointed out to you how that is not objective and I am getting sick and tired of this complete dishonesty from you.

Okay, God DID EXACTLY THAT. Once, already. So, "God exists" is a null hypothesis. Now prove your statements.


The Bible's claims are no more relevant then this napkin.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/napkin_religion.jpg

Probably, but if I do this, they say "you're not an authority, so your claims are unbacked" and stop there. Pitiful I say.


It has nothing to do with your or anyone else's authority that makes the claims unbacked. I would try to explain again why but it seems your not listening.

MGW does not want to try searching for any of these, since he shares your position to some extent.


You have no idea what I do.
Strop
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Strop
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Bard

Unfortunately they don't meet the criteria outlined. The are often very vague or the result of being self fulfilling and among a shotgun tactic of hit or miss predicting.


I would share your sentiment but my knowledge of the details of each case is rudimentary, or even less, so would be loath to offer a generalised judgement.

Okay. I don't really see why it should be treated as a special case.


I didn't think you would, given your stance up to now. "Special case" is not the clearest way to put it (merely a wave of my hand as I can't afford to spend time typing on the phone while working), so I'll expand on what I mean now (that my shift has just finished, that is).

As far as I understand, a traditional theological interpretation of God would go something like "you do not apprehend God's whole form at any one time, but everything you observe is of God." It just never seemed to me to be a notion that one could dissect, consider piecemeal, nor anything that was cited as possible proof of the existence of God itself (including 'rophecies' and 'miracles' ever anything more than historical verification. Independent of all that, God was still the notion that either you accept, or you don't. Anything can be 'explained away' if a person is willing enough to do so, hence my earlier comment that decisions regarding the 'assessment of phenomena that may be relevant to God existing' is up to that person alone.

I'm a pragmatist. In brief, between being right and being fair, I would rather believe I was being fair than right, particularly because being skeptical of everything, being right is a nebulous concept to me... and certainly not the way that a person who preferred to be right would view it, as I'm sure you appreciate. Also in brief, being a pragmatist means that I seek to maximise utility out of my conceptual framework, and at least for me that means acknowledging limitations of whatever models I adopt, which means not being overly dogmatic.

I am always mindful that science, rationality etc. may appear to be prevalent but that we are not inherently rational beings, more like we merely wish to appear that way as we increasingly select for that factor. Thus I would consider asserting that just as a belief in God must be inherently irrational, I would also assert the belief that reason has supplanted notions of God etc. to be inevitably stemmed from irrational motives. And that's why I take such a dim view at the liberal bandying about of the term "objective" here, because all it really indicates to me is a lack of self-recognition.

Science, on the other hand, has a specific scope, used to ask specific questions that it determines it is able to answer. Perhaps this is merely the result of my professional background, but I consider it a farce and an affront to the tenets of science to attempt to apply them in a manner where all that is ostensibly at stake is one's feelings.

When it comes to verifying the claim is true then god does not transcend this, as much as some may want it to in order to side step such requirements.


Since the disagreement here consists of the involved parties refusing to accept each others' premises, therein lies the impasse. Thus my criticisms from earlier are directed at both parties.
supertedy
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supertedy
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Nomad

Actually, you don't believe 100% in God, when you'll seek for evidence of God's existing. Believing is good enough, to prove that he exists. (Kinda)

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