AGS Steam Games

Forums → WEPR → Worship: what would it take?

38 6204
aknerd
offline
aknerd
1,416 posts
Peasant

I've seen some atheist people on here state what it would take make them theists. However, being a theist is vastly different from actually worshiping a god.

So, assuming (for the purposes of this thread) that some sort of god exists, and you have free will, what would this god have to be like to merit your unwavering worship and devotion? Note that the earth does not have to be the same as it is now in this situation. IE this god could have created some sort of utopia for you to live in instead of the earth with all its imperfections.

For the theists out there:
Why do you worship your god? (Again, not asking why you believe in your god)

  • 38 Replies
FireflyIV
offline
FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

So, a god's weakness actually merits positive attention.


If God isn't all powerful then he wouldn't have been able to create the world and us in the first place. You cannot have a weak God. A God that isn't all powerful cannot create the universe and life, and therefore could not exist.

Therefore, it kind of makes sense that less power = more attention, because it absolves the god of a lot of responsibility.


I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. Ignoring my above point about the fallacy of the existence of a weak God, if God can create the universe and matter, he can surely manipulate the events on Earth. That's like having a watchmaker who makes a watch which breaks, and has no idea how to fix it.

Would any of you who have said you would pray to a god in order to help yourself/others, would you go so far as sacrifice things to said god? What would you be willing to sacrifice? (this can be things in your life like in lent, or lambs, or whatever you want)


It all depends on how much I value what I'm told to sacrifice and what the reward would be. Personally, I'm very contented with my non material life. Happy with my family, relationship and friends. If I want something it would most likely be money, since that's the one thing that would make my life a hell of a lot easier. That would mean this God would no doubt demand me to sacrifice something which means a lot to me, but that I would not do because I don't value it highly enough. Or at least that's the way I see it. Basically what I'm saying is, it depends on how many zeroes we're talking about.

If a god wanted to be prayed to (and free will exists), wouldn't it make sense to create an imperfect world, so that people have a reason to pray to him?


Yes, but that would make God a bit of a nob-head. And if we subscribe to Abrahamic notions of a merciful omniscient being, this doesn't add up. At best it would seem God is a naive scientist conducting a human experiment. At worst he's a bit of a sadist what with all the **** and pillage he's complicit to by virtue of not preventing it.
loloynage2
offline
loloynage2
4,206 posts
Peasant

If I knew for sure that he exists and he needs prayers, then yes, I would pray for him if the world he created is good.

Kasic
offline
Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

If I knew for sure that he exists and he needs prayers, then yes, I would pray for him if the world he created is good.


Again, all powerful god created the universe and life, "needs" prayers? What, is he that pathetic? Such an almighty being should be happy in just seeing people live their lives, not mindless worship...
aknerd
offline
aknerd
1,416 posts
Peasant

@Highfire: it sounds like globus is like a superhero.

If God isn't all powerful then he wouldn't have been able to create the world and us in the first place. You cannot have a weak God. A God that isn't all powerful cannot create the universe and life, and therefore could not exist.


Um, no. Not at all. For two main reasons:
Who said anything about creating the universe? The Greek gods didn't. They are still gods, and they definitely are not all powerful.

Just because you can create the universe, doesn't mean you can create/do anything. For instance, a god might be able to create A universe, but it might not be able to create a perfect universe.

Hence, not all powerful.

That's like having a watchmaker who makes a watch which breaks, and has no idea how to fix it.


Right. But, in the case of all the posters so far, no one has opted to live in an utopia. So they are all, in a sense, living on a "broken watch". Then, who would you prefer: someone who knows how to fix the watch, but doesn't, or someone who would like to fix the watch, but can't (at least not without your help)?

So far, people seem to prefer the second person.

God would no doubt demand me to sacrifice something which means a lot to me

Why? If you believe god is all powerful, why does he need sacrifices? He should be able to reward you without requiring a sacrifice. Hell, he was the one who created a situation in which you didn't have everything you needed in the first place. Why would you respect such a jerk of a god?

and if we subscribe to Abrahamic notions of a merciful omniscient being


You can subscribe to whatever notions you want to. That's the point of the thread.

If I knew a god existed and could hear me through prayer I would pray simply to hold conversation. So needing something or not wouldn't matter.


Remember, you are making your own god here. Is there any sort of situation in which you would pray, not in a conversational sense, but in a humble, worshiping sense? I'm thinking along something along the lines of this. Though, yes, just talking to a god would extremely awesome.

Again, all powerful god created the universe and life, "needs" prayers? What, is he that pathetic? Such an almighty being should be happy in just seeing people live their lives, not mindless worship...

I agree completely. This is the same conclusion I came to when discussing this with my friends.

And, as such, I'm going to expand upon my first question:

Is there any situation in which you would sacrifice something to a god, even if he did not actually need the sacrifice for anything?
MageGrayWolf
offline
MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Again, all powerful god created the universe and life, "needs" prayers? What, is he that pathetic? Such an almighty being should be happy in just seeing people live their lives, not mindless worship...


I don't recall this thought experiment outlining an omnipotent god. Just some god.

The basic requirement to be considered a god would seem to be "the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute"

Nothing in there saying this being has to be perfect at that attribute, just the best.

Remember, you are making your own god here. Is there any sort of situation in which you would pray, not in a conversational sense, but in a humble, worshiping sense? I'm thinking along something along the lines of this. Though, yes, just talking to a god would extremely awesome.


As I said in my first post.
"As for worship I don't know perhaps high admiration would be given if that deity was truly benevolent and used it's power to everyone's betterment the best it could."

So it would be unlikely I would pray in such a manner.

When I was a theist the last time I did pray it ended about the same as Conan's prayer.
MageGrayWolf
offline
MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Is there any situation in which you would sacrifice something to a god, even if he did not actually need the sacrifice for anything?


If this deity doesn't need it then there would be no point.
Highfire
offline
Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

A God that isn't all powerful cannot create the universe and life, and therefore could not exist.

Umm how can a God exist by creating everything that's there then? Your argument relies on an unanswerable question, which is fairly rediculous, I might add. The definition of a God has different meanings to different people - to me it is someone with perfect moral understanding. That is ALL.

Ignoring my above point about the fallacy of the existence of a weak God,

Yeah, because we're actually going to make our own God's. It's hypothetical.

Yes, but that would make God a bit of a nob-head.

I think that's called Christi-- sorry I've been cut off, I'm not allowed to say that sort of stuff. :P

it sounds like globus is like a superhero.

I'm exaggerating. <3
A lot.

The Greek gods didn't. They are still gods, and they definitely are not all powerful.

Was it not Chaos (The Void) who started it? He was the father of the older unmentioned Gods, way above the family tree of Greek Gods.

For instance, a god might be able to create A universe, but it might not be able to create a perfect universe.

In those circumstances a benevolent God should realize that the possible suffering caused is indeed not worth his worship.

So they are all, in a sense, living on a "broken watch".

Mine isn't broken, in fact it's better than broken. Instead of having a shiny watch that will break the hands down eventually due to being spoilt, lazy and the like (all possible side effects from living in perfection), we're keeping the hands going for as long as possible, pretty much manually.

or someone who would like to fix the watch, but can't (at least not without your help)?

This one, I still wouldn't like it handed to me straight away, I'd rather it be a slow growth.

just talking to a god would extremely awesome.

That's my God right d'ere!
A physical manifestation that acts as one of the village is a pretty awesome way to go about it, it provides empathy, it provides company, it provides entertainment, hell, what do you lose?

Is there any situation in which you would sacrifice something to a god, even if he did not actually need the sacrifice for anything?

Again, the things that are not required, rocks for all I care. Perhaps a house we built in his honor - especially if he can physically manifest it'd be nice for a "sleepover", yes, I am going way too into this.

Perhaps he's always a physical manifestation of himself but does not require food and has the ability to travel between villages are extreme speeds? I don't know! :P

So it would be unlikely I would pray in such a manner.

I would probably be impossible for me. It'd feel like I'm openly telling the God that I am helpless / hopeless etc without him, I don't wanna degrade myself like that and I couldn't respect a God who would want me to degrade myself like that.

- H
FireflyIV
offline
FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

Who said anything about creating the universe? The Greek gods didn't. They are still gods, and they definitely are not all powerful.


Which is why the Greek Gods never existed.

Just because you can create the universe, doesn't mean you can create/do anything. For instance, a god might be able to create A universe, but it might not be able to create a perfect universe.


Even if a God is unable to create a perfect universe, he should be able to fix it once he's seen its imperfections. Or at least try.

Then, who would you prefer: someone who knows how to fix the watch, but doesn't, or someone who would like to fix the watch, but can't (at least not without your help)?


Neither. I would prefer a God to either create a utopia or to try and fix the world we live in. I don't see why I owe anything to a God who's either lazy or naive enough to think humans are going to solve their own problems.

If you believe god is all powerful, why does he need sacrifices?


The point about holy sacrifice is not that you are giving a God something the God needs or wants, it's about proving your faith and devotion thereby receiving some reward in return.

Why would you respect such a jerk of a god?


Why did citizens of the USSR, Nazi Germany or indeed modern day China respect their masters. Because they hold coercive power over them. If you know there is a God who is a ****, it's unwise to insult them. Self preservation. It's pretty obvious.

That's the point of the thread.


Well that's not very helpful, since if God can be anything from omniscient and omnipotent to stupid and weak, merciful or sadistic, then anything anyone says goes, and we're not going to get anywhere intellectually speaking. This thread is just people saying what they want/don't want out of a God.

Umm how can a God exist by creating everything that's there then? Your argument relies on an unanswerable question, which is fairly rediculous, I might add.


The question is answered if God is omnipotent and omniscient.

The definition of a God has different meanings to different people - to me it is someone with perfect moral understanding. That is ALL.


And why does perfect moral understanding make someone a God? Indeed perfect moral understanding is not really all that impressive, since morals are the ethics reflected by society and subjective to change depending on the culture of that society. I'm sure there are quite a few anthropology and sociology professors with what could be termed as a perfect moral understanding living right now.
Kasic
offline
Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Which is why the Greek Gods never existed.


Says you. Any proof that they don't? They had miracles attributed to them, they had temples built in thier honor, they had large followings of people, how is this any different from current religions?

Even if a God is unable to create a perfect universe, he should be able to fix it once he's seen its imperfections. Or at least try.


Try maybe, but what if he's unable to? That would mean he's not omnipotent.

I don't see why I owe anything to a God who's either lazy or naive enough to think humans are going to solve their own problems.


We will, eventually, if we don't destroy ourselves first/get destroyed. We have been slowly marching onward toward a better path.

The point about holy sacrifice is not that you are giving a God something the God needs or wants, it's about proving your faith and devotion thereby receiving some reward in return.


In other words, don't sacrifice, as it means nothing.

Why did citizens of the USSR, Nazi Germany or indeed modern day China respect their masters. Because they hold coercive power over them. If you know there is a God who is a ****, it's unwise to insult them. Self preservation. It's pretty obvious.


Such a ruler is not fit to rule, and deserves to be opposed.
HahiHa
online
HahiHa
8,256 posts
Regent

Which is why the Greek Gods never existed.

In your opinion greek gods don't exist simply because they are not all-powerful?...

The greek gods were not perfect at all, but those human traits they had 1. made them closer to their followers because they could understand them better, and 2. still made them terrible because they could be very capricious, and a mad god isn't exactly the best thing you could imagine.. that's why ancient greeks would also made sacrifices, not to proove their faith because they all believed their gods existed, but to proove obedience etc.
My point being, greek gods don't exist because they don't exist, just like all deities, but if they actually would they could still be considered deities because of their immortality and powers.. plus, the world would be one crazy fun place to be^^
But I guess you will not even now agree, because your definition to what can be considered a deity seems to include omnipotence as necessary part, not being satisfied with immense powers.
Highfire
offline
Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

Which is why the Greek Gods never existed.

Okay, but there is this all-powerful Angel called Retard that roams around granting wishes to those who wish to live and go to the test of life, in order to dictate if they are good enough to go to this place called Nevaeh. Since Retard is all-powerful, he's real.

Using your logic, bro.

Even if a God is unable to create a perfect universe, he should be able to fix it once he's seen its imperfections. Or at least try.

How so?

Neither. I would prefer a God to either create a utopia or to try and fix the world we live in. I don't see why I owe anything to a God who's either lazy or naive enough to think humans are going to solve their own problems.

With your thinking, I'm fairly sure humans of your kind wouldn't fix their own problems. Utopia often won't help in the long run, if you don't have a goal to achieve then there's no real point in living - I don't know the meaning of life, I actually don't believe there is one, so my philosophy is to make one for yourself.

If you know there is a God who is a ****, it's unwise to insult them. Self preservation. It's pretty obvious.

That's a weak... weak statement. Not saying you follow it but I cannot respect anyone who'd do that for their life, it isn't even life considering you'd be living under a tyrant.

Well that's not very helpful, since if God can be anything from omniscient and omnipotent to stupid and weak, merciful or sadistic, then anything anyone says goes, and we're not going to get anywhere intellectually speaking. This thread is just people saying what they want/don't want out of a God.

Yeah, it's a good thing. It helps him understand how humans think of the concept of God, no? I've already said what I wanted from God, and it's achievable by any human, for the most part. Intellectually speaking you haven't been the most helpful either, I might add.

The question is answered if God is omnipotent and omniscient.

How did that come about?

And why does perfect moral understanding make someone a God? Indeed perfect moral understanding is not really all that impressive, since morals are the ethics reflected by society and subjective to change depending on the culture of that society. I'm sure there are quite a few anthropology and sociology professors with what could be termed as a perfect moral understanding living right now.

They're not reflected by society, that's influence and morality can stem from it. Morality is pretty clear, and it could go as far as objectified instead of opinionated. People have good moral standings but do not put it to practice - I should've added that to what makes a God, someone with perfect moral understanding and furthermore always follows it.

We will, eventually, if we don't destroy ourselves first/get destroyed. We have been slowly marching onward toward a better path.

Too slowly for my liking.

Such a ruler is not fit to rule, and deserves to be opposed.

And if we die it's essentially self-harm. So yeah, his loss <3

But I guess you will not even now agree, because your definition to what can be considered a deity seems to include omnipotence as necessary part, not being satisfied with immense powers.

If I had to add anything to a "God", it would be power, why? Well, with perfect moral understanding how will he / she abuse it? I mean, really, that's one of the problems with a few different religions - is that God seems like such a scrub.

- H
loloynage2
offline
loloynage2
4,206 posts
Peasant

Again, all powerful god created the universe and life, "needs" prayers? What, is he that pathetic? Such an almighty being should be happy in just seeing people live their lives, not mindless worship...

Either he is not all powerful. (Maybe it's some old alien that found out how to create Universes and it needs prayers to keep the Universe stable) or he would be all powerful and yes it would be pathetic, but if I see that he is a good god, then I would pray for him. Of course I would ask him why he needs prayers -.-
Highfire
offline
Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

You wouldn't ask why he lets atrocities to be done, in his name and out his name? I mean, he did indirectly cause it in the first place, take some responsibility.

Also prayers to keep the Universe stable? This spiritual stuff is painful <3
Watch the video, understand how brains work, even if it's a little insight.

- H

loloynage2
offline
loloynage2
4,206 posts
Peasant

Also prayers to keep the Universe stable? This spiritual stuff is painful <3
Watch the video, understand how brains work, even if it's a little insight.

Wow there. I'm talking about an alternative reality. God doesn't actually exist and stuff. I'm just saying if, in a alternative reality, a god would need prayers, and that alternative reality is a almost perfect world, I would pray for that god
FireflyIV
offline
FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

Says you. Any proof that they don't?


Ever been up Mount Olympus where they're supposed to live? Anyone ever been killed for doing so as prescribed by the mythology? Didn't think so.

We have been slowly marching onward toward a better path.


I think that's a very dubious assertion.

In other words, don't sacrifice, as it means nothing.


No. Sacrifice if you know you're going to get something of higher value than what you sacrificed out of it.

Such a ruler is not fit to rule, and deserves to be opposed.


Much easier said than done. Try going on a civil rights protest in any of the nations where currently none exist and see how far it gets you. If we can't even stand up to evil governments, how on earth could you stand up to an evil God?

Using your logic, bro.


No, the Greek Gods don't exist because they named their home place which is clearly devoid of the Gods. They made the mistake of making their existence empirically testable.

How so?


By using his Godly powers...

It helps him understand how humans think of the concept of God, no?


How humans understand the concept of God and how humans would like a hypothetical God to behave in order to justify worshipping them are two very different things. And I don't think asking people about the latter is a particularly insightful look at the human psyche.

With your thinking, I'm fairly sure humans of your kind wouldn't fix their own problems.


With my thinking? This is the world we live in. Billions of people suffer every day just to get enough to eat and drink. Poverty aside, think of all the humanitarian crises there are occurring around the globe. I don't know what planet you live on, but it sure would be nice to move there.

Utopia often won't help in the long run, if you don't have a goal to achieve then there's no real point in living


That's easy for us to say sitting in a nice comfy first world country. For billions of people their only goal is to stay alive. Utopia doesn't imply that there is nothing to do. Humans are still the most innovative animals ever to have walked the earth. People would still challenge themselves and others, merely in a world free of suffering.

That's a weak... weak statement. Not saying you follow it but I cannot respect anyone who'd do that for their life, it isn't even life considering you'd be living under a tyrant.


It seems like you've ignored pretty much the whole of human history up until the rise of Republican democracy, and even after that. Time and time again, people do what it takes to survive, even if living under tyrannical conditions. Dying for your beliefs is noble, but pointless, especially if this tyrant is a God who can presumably not be overthrown due to his Godliness.

I should've added that to what makes a God, someone with perfect moral understanding and furthermore always follows it.


How do you follow a moral understanding? Again, morals are the barometer of what people think is acceptable behaviour within one society. Moral standards change depending on culture. You can't follow the perfect moral code, because there isn't one. It's an entirely subjective, artificial concept.
Showing 16-30 of 38