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Forums → WEPR → You support Israel? I DO
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I just feel the morals and ethics of the middle east aren't right compared to any western country.
- 879 Replies
That's because you made an equation of Israel being totally Jewish, and visa versa. What I said is that there are plenty of Jewish artifacts and historical sights in Israel.
Than I think you did not read my whole post and posts afterwards.
TheSecond Holy Temple was destroyed and the Jews were kicked out of the area.
Thats exactly my point, had it been so dear to your ancestors, they would have fought to death for it, not just surrendered it.Now as they have not, they don't deserve it, not on the expense of current dwellers at least.
I suggest doing research before making baseless accusations.
That's nice, but irrelevant. For what it's worth, the Jews on Masada committed mass suicide when the Romans started building a ramp to reach them.
"Why didn't they fight the builders?" you ask.
Well, because the people who were building the ramp were Jewish slaves to the Romans.
My point is completely relevant, as I said muslims will fight for makkah till last man,had your ancestors done that, there would not have had been a conflict.
More over in such wars, its "u r with us or against us " situation.
And those slaves were obviously traotors of the cause
punisher, you clearly don't understand main points of the Jewish religion. For Muslims maybe, you would fight to the death, however Jews have a higher value on life than Islam!
Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world.
- Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5; Babylonian Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin 37a
Those Jews were forced to build the ramp, they did not do it of free will!
Now as they have not, they don't deserve it, not on the expense of current dwellers at least.
So you are saying because some people saw that they were completely outnumbered and out-skilled by Roman forces decided to surrender and not get slaughtered (aka, they did the smart thing), Jews don't deserve a homeland? You should be THANKING the Romans right now, because they INVENTED your precious "Palestine."
punisher, you clearly don't understand main points of the Jewish religion. For Muslims maybe, you would fight to the death, however Jews have a higher value on life than Islam!
I can see that in palestine,
freedom flotilla, sabra and shateela.
So you are saying because some people saw that they were completely outnumbered and out-skilled by Roman forces decided to surrender and not get slaughtered (aka, they did the smart thing), Jews don't deserve a homeland? You should be THANKING the Romans right now, because they INVENTED your precious "Palestine."
As a wise guy said"there is a fine line b/w cowardice and being smart"
Had that land valued for them that much they would have fought for it, as they did not,they dont have a right over it espacially not after 20 centuries.
BTW I never knew killing ones self is smart.
I can see that in palestine,
freedom flotilla, sabra and shateela.
The Freedom Flotilla was a sham in order to incite anti-Israeli hatred. The "eace activists" beat the commandoes with metal poles, and then whined when they got shot at. They had the chance to divert to a different port, but they made the stupid mistake of trying to run the blockade, then injuring the soldiers.
BTW I never knew killing ones self is smart.
Because they resisted expulsion and committed violent acts against Roman troops, the people seeking shelter would have been tortured first, and then killed. It was the easiest option out in that situation, and certainly the least painful.
As a wise guy said"there is a fine line b/w cowardice and being smart"
Had that land valued for them that much they would have fought for it, as they did not,they dont have a right over it espacially not after 20 centuries.
It is not cowardice if you are outnumbered, out-manned, and out-trained! The resistance fighters had ZERO chance of success in Jerusalem OR Masada. You need to learn history before you accuse fighters of being cowards, when you no nothing of their situation. Jerusalem was under siege, and they would have all died if they didn't surrender. As for Masada, those who sheltered there would have been killed either way.
It is not cowardice if you are outnumbered, out-manned, and out-trained! The resistance fighters had ZERO chance of success in Jerusalem OR Masada. You need to learn history before you accuse fighters of being cowards, when you no nothing of their situation. Jerusalem was under siege, and they would have all died if they didn't surrender. As for Masada, those who sheltered there would have been killed either way.
History also have examples like king leonidas.
The Freedom Flotilla was a sham in order to incite anti-Israeli hatred. The "eace activists" beat the commandoes with metal poles, and then whined when they got shot at. They had the chance to divert to a different port, but they made the stupid mistake of trying to run the blockade, then injuring the soldiers.
Any thing that goes against Israel, u deny it as a sham or as a propanganda against Israel.
those activists went to help people Illegaly deprived of their basic needs and Israel tried to stop them.(but of course ppl living in gaza are all terrorists for)
I some times wonder about your mental condition cuz you cry about pals firing rockets and justify every thing IDF does.
If I support someone unjust, only bcoz of him being muslim, that will be a sin in my part.
I dont know what your religion says.
is not cowardice if you are outnumbered, out-manned, and out-trained! The resistance fighters had ZERO chance of success in Jerusalem OR Masada. You need to learn history before you accuse fighters of being cowards, when you no nothing of their situation. Jerusalem was under siege, and they would have all died if they didn't surrender. As for Masada, those who sheltered there would have been killed either way.
Or they could have fought to death like japs in wwii.
It is not cowardice if you are outnumbered, out-manned, and out-trained!
I recall a battle in WWII where a few members of the French Foreign Legion were surrounded in a shack, completely outnumbered and outgunned by sturmtruppen, and still fought to the death. In war, surrendering is considered more cowardly than to die in battle because you gave your life fighting against oppression instead of complying.
In war, surrendering is considered more cowardly than to die in battle because you gave your life fighting against oppression instead of complying.
While that is nice and all, I don't exactly think that a WWII battle is applicable to a 70 CE battle.
Any thing that goes against Israel, u deny it as a sham or as a propanganda against Israel.
those activists went to help people Illegaly deprived of their basic needs and Israel tried to stop them
I do not deny everything against Israel as propaganda against Israel. I am actually fairly critical of some of their actions like how some-note the word some-settlements sanctioned by the government are inhibiting to the peace process. However I also think about what other people say. Watch this Youtube video and tell me it is Israel's fault for the deaths of the "activists."
I some times wonder about your mental condition cuz you cry about pals firing rockets and justify every thing IDF does.
I sometimes wonder about YOUR mental condition cuz you cry about Israelis trying to kill those who want to kill their citizens and justify a lot of things that Hamas does. If only every rocket attack on Israel were as effective as every Israeli attack on Hamas militants, the Gaza Strip would be a barren wasteland, I can tell you that much.
If I support someone unjust, only bcoz of him being muslim, that will be a sin in my part.
I dont know what your religion says.
So now you attempt to indirectly insult Judaism by suggesting that we only support Jews because they are Jews. In Judaism, we are actually taught to think for ourselves and make our own decisions. I do that, my rabbi does it, and so do millions of Jews across the globe. I am allowed to interpret facts the way I choose to, so I do.
Or they could have fought to death like japs in wwii.
Again, WWIIâ 70 CE war. Plus the two areas have very different cultures, in very different time periods, one where life is valued, the other where kamikaze charges are considered "heroic."
A reply to my last post on page 43 would be nice.
Sure thing...
Israel does not need to sustain current borders, which in fact incite more Palestinian attacks
Israel will be willing to retreat from her current borders as soon as all attacks stop against here and she has signed peace treaties with all Arab nations in the Middle East who have declared war on her.
So now the Palestinians are pests who bite for no reason?
It was simply an analogy...
A) Israel has not halted the settlement building, a clear sign of its intentions.
Ummm, in 2009, no one came to the table...
B) Israel has itself rejected Palestinian attempts, which did include a one to one swap that Israel rejected.
Link please.
Given that most Palestinians would choose to live in their own state, rather than living under the umbrella of their not so long ago foes
Why would you assume that? Keep in mind that many of these people hate Israel with all their being. If there was a Palestinian state, why would Israel make the idiotic decision to let in more Palestinians, when that could potentially lead to ANOTHER Palestinian state! You aren't going to like this next sentence, but these people breed like rabbits! In the Gaza Strip alone, the birth rate is 35.3 births/1000 people, and they rank 7th in the world in population growth! (CIA-The World Factbook)
Israel will be willing to retreat from her current borders as soon as all attacks stop against here and she has signed peace treaties with all Arab nations in the Middle East who have declared war on her.
Since the Palestinians have mentioned that they would agree to a peace if they were given back their 1967 land, I don't see why prerequisites of peace treaties with other nations need to occur. As mentioned earlier, most of the major Arab powers have signed treaties with Israel, or are indirectly linked via alliances with the USA. Furthermore, one can argue that ever since the Six Day War, the fighting by the Arab nations was not so much in support for the Palestinians, but for other reasons, Pan Arabic dreams and Egyptian Superiority (Nasser), and a return of land in 1973 (Egypt and Syria). Thus, it can be argued that the issue has split, the Arab nations might call for support for the Palestinians, but their own reasons were give as much force and consideration when war was waged. Hence there is no need to have said prerequisites since the issues are not altogether tied.
It was simply an analogy...
Analogies go both ways, so discretion should be given before using one.
Ummm, in 2009, no one came to the table...
Again, the settlement stopping promise was insincere, since:
The freeze will also not apply to construction that has already been authorized or to work on public buildings conducive to normal life in the territories.
It again shows that Israel is not fully committed to actual peace talks, that they won't stop all building, but will continue with those that are already under construction. That still sends out a clear message that ''Peace or not, we still will work on what we have, and I don't care if you protest.''.
Link please.
I believed I did a few pages back actually.
You aren't going to like this next sentence, but these people breed like rabbits
Yes, and they rightfully hate Israel, there is nothing wrong in that. I would assume so, since the studies I linked showed that the majority of Palestinians wanted the 1967 borders, which would indirectly mean that they wanted their own nation, rather than migrating to Israel. As you stated too, such people hate Israel's guts, so why would they want to live under the Israeli government? Furthermore, even if they breed like rabbits, didn't I give you the rather simple solution of immigration quotas?
Given that the Jewish people so easily broke this rule half a century ago, it might not be altogether unreasonable for me to state with wry sarcasm that they will know how to halt such illegal inflow over the quota.
Furthermore, didn't you admit that Israel should not have an official religion? In that case, why would it be absurd to have yet another Muslim/Palestinian state in the far future? Or will Israel keep desperately clinging on to it's Jewish character whilst hiding behind promises and pledges that Israel welcomes all races, and doesn't want to impose Judaism as the official religion?
Also, remember the religious Jews I mentioned a few pages back? Guess what, they produce like rabbits too, in fact, at a higher rate than the Muslim birthrate within Israel. It is estimated that they double their population every 12 - 20 years.
Furthermore, didn't you admit that Israel should not have an official religion? In that case, why would it be absurd to have yet another Muslim/Palestinian state in the far future? Or will Israel keep desperately clinging on to it's Jewish character whilst hiding behind promises and pledges that Israel welcomes all races, and doesn't want to impose Judaism as the official religion?
You just don't get this do you? That country, is literally representative of 2000 years of sweat and blood. The pogroms in Russia, the blood libels in Middle Age Europe, the Holocaust. All we are asking for is less than .01% of a region, and even that could be taken away from us. I have said that I don't want there to be an official religion. That doesn't mean that I don't want the country to have a primarily Jewish population.
As you stated too, such people hate Israel's guts, so why would they want to live under the Israeli government? Furthermore, even if they breed like rabbits, didn't I give you the rather simple solution of immigration quotas?
Immigration quotas mean nothing as soon as the Palestinians start to enter. If they have kids at the rate of those in the Gaza Strip, Israel won't be...Israel any more.
Also, remember the religious Jews I mentioned a few pages back? Guess what, they produce like rabbits too, in fact, at a higher rate than the Muslim birthrate within Israel. It is estimated that they double their population every 12 - 20 years.
Except since they are Israeli citizens, that helps contribute to the population growth.
Since the Palestinians have mentioned that they would agree to a peace if they were given back their 1967 land, I don't see why prerequisites of peace treaties with other nations need to occur.
Because Iran will have a freaking nuke in 1-2 years. No peace treaty with these countries, and Israel is susceptible to invasion from Syria (hostile), Iran (very hostile), and every other Arab country which Israel hasn't signed a treaty with.
You just don't get this do you? That country, is literally representative of 2000 years of sweat and blood. The pogroms in Russia, the blood libels in Middle Age Europe, the Holocaust. All we are asking for is less than .01% of a region, and even that could be taken away from us. I have said that I don't want there to be an official religion. That doesn't mean that I don't want the country to have a primarily Jewish population.
Let me rephrase that. By gearing policy towards always ensuring a Jewish minority, that is just as bad as almost having an official religion, that the government biasedly backs a Jewish character of the state, even as their numbers dwindle. That is NOT how a democracy works. The Israeli demographic timebomb is inevitable, and if by then the Israeli Jews insist that the state must have a Jewish character when they are in the minority, they will be almost on par with the Nazis who aimed for an Aryan state, without the genocide hopefully. A tad bit ironical.
Furthermore, as has been said before, just because guilt has been shown over the years of discrimination does not entail they have a right to just claim back a land that had a majority of Muslim faith. If the various nations had guilt over persecuting the Jews over the centuries, then they themselves should compensate them, not foist the responsibility onto the Muslims of Palestine, which if I may remind you, treated Jews much better than most of Christian Europe.
If such a guilt argument runs through, then the Catholics who have been persecuted in Japan should have a separate state. The natives of the USA should be given fully independent states. The Aborigines should be given a state independent from Australia. Guilt does not justify the creation of an artificial state by driving off its original inhabitants. If your guilt argument runs, then Israel should also give back the land to the Palestinians, since they are after all guilty of oppressing them.
A persecuted people does not necessarily mean that they automatically have a right to have a homeland. That land was the home of a Muslim majority who suddenly are expected to just be driven off. I can understand a Jewish state in a Jewish majority area, but that does not justify chasing the Palestinians out of what is a majority Muslim area. Furthermore, didn't we already discredit the time argument?
Immigration quotas mean nothing as soon as the Palestinians start to enter. If they have kids at the rate of those in the Gaza Strip, Israel won't be...Israel any more.
Let us examine your first sentence. Immigration quotas place strict numbers on the number of Palestinians coming in; once a limit is reached, accept no more. When they become Israeli residents, I'm going to assume the government is not totalitarian enough to claim that the Muslim population cannot have children, whilst the Jewish Israelis can just to artificially maintain the Jewish nature of a state. That is utter rot and discrimination.
Except since they are Israeli citizens, that helps contribute to the population growth.
Arab Israelis also give birth to kids, so why are they criticized for having a higher birth rate than their Jewish counterparts? Why are they then not seen as contributing to the general population but instead lampooned as breeding like rabbits? It is entirely reasonable for me to infer that you hence feel that Arab Israelis are somehow less worthwhile than their Jewish coutnerparts if that's the case.
Or are you going to hypocritically switch Israeli citizen interchangeably with Jew, the very same point that you hounded me and Punisher for? If you're going to state that Jewish Israeli babies are somehow more preferred than Arab Israeli ones, then that is blatant discrimination.
Because Iran will have a freaking nuke in 1-2 years. No peace treaty with these countries, and Israel is susceptible to invasion from Syria (hostile), Iran (very hostile), and every other Arab country which Israel hasn't signed a treaty with.
Israel has hundreds of nukes. A little hypocritical to adopt a holier than thou attitude then? So Israel can bomb suspected nuclear targets and stop others having the bomb, but it can possess the biggest arsenal in the region and the Arabs can take their word that Israel will not use them? That's plain bullying and a double standard approach that makes Israel more enemies, not peace. If they expect the Arab nations not to embark on nuclear technology, they have to give theirs up too. Furthermore I have already shown how the Arab beefs with Israeli have more or less been settled, apart from some nations. I have also shown that the Arab nations pursued war more for their own selfish agendas rather than for the sake of a Palestinian state, effectively splitting the issue, the peace treaties for the Arab nations should not be mixed with the peace treaties with the PLO.
Just to clarify for the sake of debate, Iran is NOT an Arab nation.
Jewish minority
Jewish Majority* Mind going into autopilot mode already.
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