I believe this has come up a few times in the other threads, but I would like to focus on it. Can any of you atheists tell me what is wrong with the wager, because i've been reading a little bit about it and can't seem to find anything that solidly disproves it or is bad about it, even from an atheist perspective
First of all, you talk about God, then you talk about the origin of the crops. Going into atheism, however, you are talking about the present-day science of crops, which Christians happen to have no problem with.
I know that. I was arguing the person who wrote the article. They claimed that part of the reason they believed in Christianity over atheism was because Christianity explained things in life. I made that example to show that is not a good reason to believe in Christianity because if you really wanted to understand the world then you should go to science for the answers, because science gives a better explanation backed up with facts.
I read some of his other explanations too. I didn't argue everything that I didn't agree with. Only a few things.
How does this disprove pascal's wager? this is a part of it, so this dosen't exactly disprove it
His wager is based on the idea that there is much to gain if god exists and you get nothing if he doesn't exist. But there are so many possibilitys, even including ones that would penalize you for believing in god. So, if you have the same chance as anyone else at being right then pascal's wager isn't a good reason to believe in god.
Also, in I or II Kings, there is a pool of fire measured at ten cubits across and thirty cubits around. This yields a value for pi of 3. If the pool was indeed ten cubits across, it should have been thirty-one around, or if thirty around it should have been closer to nine across. Either way, the math offered is verifiably wrong
think back to the time perod here. the measuring systems couldn't be entirely accurate, and as it was it was less than a cubit off, not much in the scheme of things
I made that example to show that is not a good reason to believe in Christianity
but my point is it dosen't show anything when the time periods are that far off
even including ones that would penalize you for believing in god.
There are no beliefs in science or atheism. Science is based on observable and testable facts, where atheism is a lack of belief in one or more god(s).
when i say the science of atheism, i mean the alternatie to christian science, big bang theory, evoluion, etc.
The term ''Pascal's Wager'' is misleading, because Pascal actually listed out at least three arguments that can be termed a ''wager'', although only the last of these is termed Pascal's Wager.
he may have made other wager's, but that is not what we are discussing
God surely does not reward Mother Theresa the same as the average Joe on the street, who hasn't done anything bad, or good.
good works please God, and maybe he decides to reward us, maybe He dosen't. He has specifically said in the Bible, however, that beleiving in Him is the only way to Heaven
if we accept the wagers and believe, we are doing so because of mercernary reasons. Will God allow this then?
john 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. If youcan manage to truly believe Him through mercanary reasons, that is fine fo God. but mostly, mercanary reasons just give people an interest in Christinity, and then they end up loving od and believing because they want to.
but my point is it doesnât show anything when the time periods are that far off
Well has there been a change in the explanation of how god makes things? Is it generally accepted between christians that god doesn't just make things and that there is a process behind what we have in the world? If so, is it explained by the pastor or the bible? I dunno if this is different in your situation, or since the last time I went to church, but last I checked, there wasn't a through explaintion of how god made any if the various things made.
such as?
What do you mean? Do you mean like a certain religion? Because religions aren't the only possibilities for when you die. If there really is something after death, then as far as we know that could be just about anything. It wouldn't necessarily need to be based off a human made religion for it to exist. If we were to go based off religion though, then any religion or denomination of one where the idea is that other people will go to hell. I had a friend who is Christian that told me Catholics were going to hell. So this possibility is present even within the same religion.
think back to the time perod here. the measuring systems couldn't be entirely accurate, and as it was it was less than a cubit off, not much in the scheme of things
Even in that time period it was known that pi was not 3.
[quote]even including ones that would penalize you for believing in god.
such as?[/quote]
It could be that the real test is to see who doesn't take things on faith. Those who hold out for more evidence could the one's that get a reward at the end of this life as they were the one's to use the abilities that we were given to their fullest. Holy scriptures praising faith could just be the equivalent to a trick question, intended to trip you up. In this scenario we have a God that exists, but doesn't want us to believe on faith but on evidence, which would be provided after this life ends. We would have a God that wants us to look at religion and call bull, because it was there only to trip up people gullible enough to accept things on faith and that would be God's way of finding out which people are which. This of course would also mean we aren't dealing with an omniscient God.
when i say the science of atheism, i mean the alternatie to christian science, big bang theory, evoluion, etc.
That's just science, atheism has nothing to do with them. Though it is true that many atheists do accept scientific theory this in itself does not make it science of atheism. As for Christian science I find this term to be an oxymoron, I think junk science or pseudoscience is a much better term for it.
he may have made other wager's, but that is not what we are discussing
You never defined which wager to discuss and the one's presented do seem applicable to the arguments made.
good works please God, and maybe he decides to reward us, maybe He dosen't. He has specifically said in the Bible, however, that beleiving in Him is the only way to Heaven
This of course is only assuming Christianity is true which for the wager is an issue. So we can't just hold up one holy text and say "God said so".
john 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. If youcan manage to truly believe Him through mercanary reasons, that is fine fo God. but mostly, mercanary reasons just give people an interest in Christinity, and then they end up loving od and believing because they want to.
So you're saying your view of God is that he is fine with shallow meaningless belief or those simply pretending to the point they believe in the lie? There is also still the issue of those who would say they believe but don't actually do. It really does seem it's just all playing pretend here.
Well has there been a change in the explanation of how god makes things? Is it generally accepted between christians that god doesn't just make things and that there is a process behind what we have in the world? If so, is it explained by the pastor or the bible? I dunno if this is different in your situation, or since the last time I went to church, but last I checked, there wasn't a through explaintion of how god made any if the various things made.
Usually the way God did it according to religion is that he spoke things into existence. In essence God said "abracadabra". abracadabra; Aramaic, ibra meaning "I have created" and k'dibra meaning "through my speech", abracadabra "created as I say".
All of that, plus you will be devoured by the giant space turtle if you believe in any religions.
You see, there is a giant turtle up in outer space, but it is invisible and intangible, beyond space and time. It gets all the prayers from every religion, every religious thought, and they give him a horrible pain. He is a good guy, so if you become an atheist before deign he does not eat you, since you stopped, but if you where religious he devours your soal (As it is spelled) and you are forced to endure slight pain forever. Atheists get to go to the planet "WKMANQ" which is also invisible and intangible, where they feast and have all their dreams come true for all of eternity.
he may have made other wager's, but that is not what we are discussing
If you were more astute, you would notice that the arguments are all linked indirectly or directly, and that the objections to one also can apply to the other. Hence, mentioning all of them is not a frivolent and irrelevant exercise.
good works please God, and maybe he decides to reward us, maybe He dosen't. He has specifically said in the Bible, however, that beleiving in Him is the only way to Heaven
So you're taking the ''I'm not sure, but God does'' line of evasion again? Jolly good, except that it reflects the incoherence of Christian dogma as well. Why does God reveal certain pieces of information but not all of it? Shouldn't the full criteria of getting into heaven, a rather important cornerstone of Christianity, be fully made known?
john 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. If youcan manage to truly believe Him through mercanary reasons, that is fine fo God. but mostly, mercanary reasons just give people an interest in Christinity, and then they end up loving od and believing because they want to.
As Mage pointed out, so I can be a huge jerk in real life, BUT believe in God, and at the end, receive absolution, then eventually reach Heaven? Sounds like a real sweet deal that doesn't bother to sort out the trash from the gems if the dross of society can get into heaven too. Also, I can sit on the fence and decide to believe only because I want the reward, and not because God is in any other way significant or important to me, and I can still get in? Really? Awesome sauce.
As Mage pointed out, so I can be a huge jerk in real life, BUT believe in God, and at the end, receive absolution, then eventually reach Heaven?
That reminds me of a scene in The Good the Bad and the Ugly here, when Tuco inspects the medical wagon, sees the dead guys, crosses himself with a quick silent prayer, and begins looting.
That reminds me of a scene in The Good the Bad and the Ugly here, when Tuco inspects the medical wagon, sees the dead guys, crosses himself with a quick silent prayer, and begins looting.
Or how about this quote.
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked him to forgive me." -Emo Philips
