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ihsahn
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ihsahn
428 posts
Nomad

It's happening. It's destroying your favorite music.
Here's a very basic explanation of how it happens.

We've all probably heard albums that got hurt by loud mixing/mastering. Audioslave's self-titled. RHCP's Californication. Machine Head's The Blackening. Linkin Park's Meteora (and Hybrid Theory to a lesser extent). Alice in Chains' Black Gives Way to Blue. Metallica's infamous Death Magnetic.

Almost every single post-2000 re-released or "remastered" album.

Good music is losing quality and dynamics because of corporate idiocy. Do you even care? Do you take a stand and refuse to buy these albums? Did a re-issue compromise an album you love?

  • 11 Replies
EnterOrion
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EnterOrion
4,220 posts
Nomad

Well, I don't buy music, so no, I don't buy them.

Also, louder is better. I listen to metal for the most part, much of which is underground or not widely known and has no point in remastering, or is too new to remaster anyways.

I don't mind it, at any rate.

Nintendodo
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Nintendodo
52 posts
Nomad

I don't know about pop artists, but for metal bands/musicians, the producer/mixer doesn't have all of the power over the finished product. The artists and even record label CEOs will listen to it and give it approval before it is shipped out. If the sound quality on an album is distorted because of the track being made louder during production, the artist was probably okay with it, so maybe you should be getting mad at the artist as well. Also, if the producer or mixer decides what the finished product sounds like, then your not really getting that musician/band's song.

Also, regarding re-releases: YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THEM!!!
You can always find original copies of an album floating around somewhere, so it really doesn't matter.

That's my two cents.

ihsahn
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ihsahn
428 posts
Nomad

Well, I don't buy music, so no, I don't buy them.

That's... a discussion for another thread. A good one, but it would derail this one completely.

Also, louder is better.

Then turn up the volume knob. I don't think you understood the problem. See my original link. Loudness kills dynamics.
And if that wasn't enough, it introduces clipping and static into the mix and destroys instrument separation.

There's loads of comparisons on YouTube of the retail version of Death Magnetic with the unmastered Guitar Hero version, where the damage to the clarity of the album is plain to hear.

I listen to metal for the most part

I don't know about pop artists, but for metal bands/musicians, the producer/mixer doesn't have all of the power over the finished product.


Don't think you're clear because you only listen to metal, either. Listen to any song off of The Blackening and tell me there isn't very audible static, that the cymbals aren't totally distorted.
And that's just one example. Pretty much every technical death metal album nowadays is compressed to hell, too. Before you say "oh but it's supposed to be loud and in your face", I dare you to listen to Necrophagist's Epitaph and say it isn't great-sounding.
If those niche little albums are getting affected, you can bet your favorite bands are, too, and you might not even know.

I don't mind it, at any rate.

I bet you don't. But I'd also bet you would if you fully realized what you could be listening to if it wasn't horribly loud.

Also, if the producer or mixer decides what the finished product sounds like, then your not really getting that musician/band's song.

Well, yeah. That's bad. It's kind of the point. You're getting a *******ized version of the music.
xAyjAy
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xAyjAy
4,710 posts
Blacksmith

well, if you turn the speakers up because you like loud music than it is different to the example in the link that you posted. they should not destroy the music just by making it louder (except you make it louder with speakers).

Tobisper
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Tobisper
407 posts
Nomad

In my opinion the louder the music the better. It's an honest theory of mines. But don't be buying albums and stuff I don't buy my music, never and never will. I use alienware btw, its good.

ihsahn
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ihsahn
428 posts
Nomad

In my opinion the louder the music the better.

You have a volume knob! Turn it up yourself!

You're missing the point here entirely. Artificial loudness in the CD doesn't affect the volume at which you're actually going to listen to your music. Because it's ultimately going to be up to you.
Turtelman1234
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Turtelman1234
2,911 posts
Nomad

You have a volume knob! Turn it up yourself!


But if the music is initially louder than normal that volume knob makes it even louder.

Before you say "oh but it's supposed to be loud and in your face", I dare you to listen to Necrophagist's Epitaph and say it isn't great-sounding


I have the songs 'Epitaph' and 'Only Ash Remains' from that album, but I don't listen to it that often because I can't hear it xD it makes me go to Obscura's Omnivium.

I bet you don't. But I'd also bet you would if you fully realized what you could be listening to if it wasn't horribly loud


From Mars to Sirius by Gojira sounds amazing, and it's mainly loud. It's even better than Epitaph, in my opinion. I'd give that entire album a good long look.
ihsahn
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ihsahn
428 posts
Nomad

But if the music is initially louder than normal that volume knob makes it even louder.

Consistently missing the point.
As I said:
Artificial loudness in the CD doesn't affect the volume at which you're actually going to listen to your music.

Unless you have a ridiculously low volume limit on your speakers or like your music to be loud enough they can hear it in other neighborhoods, you will be able to listen to music at the volume you want regardless of whether it's mastered excessively loud.

Loud masters introduce distortion and clipping to the mix, while damaging clarity and instrument separation. Crank up any album and a newer remaster of the same album at the same perceived volume level - the first will sound much better.

From Mars to Sirius by Gojira sounds amazing, and it's mainly loud. It's even better than Epitaph, in my opinion. I'd give that entire album a good long look.

That doesn't exactly argue against me, though, does it? I'll say it again: just imagine how much better it could be if it wasn't horribly loud.

And before you say louder is better, consider if there isn't a point where it stops being better. And consider that an album mastered with a good dynamic range can perfectly reach that level.

PS The Way of All Flesh sounds even better, imo.
EnterOrion
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EnterOrion
4,220 posts
Nomad

and you might not even know.


Then why would I care?

But I'd also bet you would if you fully realized what you could be listening to if it wasn't horribly loud.


Not, not really.

You have a volume knob! Turn it up yourself!


With it being louder, that means the final result is louder. If my ears aren't bleeding, then I'm probably not listening to it for pure entertainment value.

Unless you're a complete audiophile, chances are you won't care. Can I hear the drums? Check. Can I hear the bass? Check. Can I hear that shredding solo? Check.

"Clarity" and &quotunch" don't matter when the volume is over 100dB. This is my opinion. I can't tell the difference because I don't have a high end speaker system. If I was listening through a thousand dollar system with too many speakers and a sub, I would think different. As of now, however, I don't. I listen through $15 earphones where there is no difference besides volume.
ihsahn
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ihsahn
428 posts
Nomad

Then why would I care?

Because you could be listening to better quality music. Your listening experience would be superior.
I simply can't put it any other way. If that's meaningless to you, I can neither argue with you nor call you a fan of music.
With it being louder, that means the final result is louder. If my ears aren't bleeding, then I'm probably not listening to it for pure entertainment value.

As I said:
Artificial loudness in the CD doesn't affect the volume at which you're actually going to listen to your music.

I refuse to make this point again.
Unless you're a complete audiophile, chances are you won't care. Can I hear the drums? Check. Can I hear the bass? Check. Can I hear that shredding solo? Check.

You're seriously telling me your music listening is that utilitarian? If you're gonna go that far, a GuitarPro midi version of any song plus any person's vocals is exactly the same as the studio version. Instrument definition and dynamics matter, and not just to an audiophile. It's plainly evident to anyone with ears and a speaker system that didn't come with your computer.
Loudness destroys detail.

Hearing the details of every instrument's timbre and dynamic variation is an essential part of music. Artists will assume that. People didn't go to absurd lengths to replicate the tones of guitarists like Dimebag Darrell or David Gilmour or Brian May for nothing - they were rich, powerful, colorful tones in and of themselves. There's a reason why drummers will try every set of drumheads they can, why singers even bother training up their vocal strength and stamina.

Don't give me this crap like the clarity and detail of instruments doesn't matter. The most non-musical people can be fascinated by the rich tone of a violin, for instance.
Compress a violin until it clips and tell me it doesn't sound radically different.
"Clarity" and &quotunch" don't matter when the volume is over 100dB.

This statement means nothing to me. What do you even mean? Instrument clarity affects what you're listening to at any volume. A bad mix/master will sound the same at any volume, as the distortion is embedded permanently into the song. So are relative dynamics between instruments.

And 100dB is like the sound of a jackhammer. That's preposterously loud. Do you like your music just blasted at you?
I can't tell the difference because I don't have a high end speaker system. If I was listening through a thousand dollar system with too many speakers and a sub, I would think different. As of now, however, I don't. I listen through $15 earphones where there is no difference besides volume.

This, in my sincerest view, means you don't really care about music that deeply, and disqualifies your opinion from holding much weight. If you cared you'd be willing to spend a little more.

Really, it's not that expensive at all to get a speaker system that will show the difference caused by excessive loudness. It doesn't have to be a "thousand dollar system with too many speakers and a sub", with a little research on the web you can find quality speakers with good value.
Hell, 100 bucks gets you a pair of decent entry-level Grados or Sennheisers that will last you for ages and redefine the way you listen to music. Even one of those overpriced college-hipster Dr. Dre Beats would be a vast improvement.

You want to paint this as an audiophile rant, but it isn't. You can hear the difference through average speakers in the various videos I've posted here - all of which are compressed by that YouTube codec, no less.

The average loudness level of CDs has grown 20dBs from the 80's to 2000. This is happening for real, it's very perceptive and huge in scale.
EnterOrion
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EnterOrion
4,220 posts
Nomad

Do you like your music just blasted at you?


There's a reason why I've lost a few percent in both my ears of permanent hearing damage.

If you cared you'd be willing to spend a little more.


I don't have a job. I don't have an income. I don't have any means of buying anything, let alone good sound equipment.

means you don't really care about music that deeply


When I honestly can't tell the difference without listening very closely, it's irrelevant. Some people need to have their music down to complete analytic levels. I am not one of these people. I need to be able to tell instruments apart, and I need to hear notes. If I can do that, it doesn't matter. I couldn't tell you what's been remastered and what hasn't been remastered by just listening to it. I have over 3,000 songs, and other than one Sonata Arctica album and a remastered version of Heaven and Hell (which is by no means louder than the original, just a bit clearer), I couldn't tell you the difference. When 90% of the music is already distorted by effects during recording, it's even more difficult. That's just how it is. While I do find myself wishing the bass drums were a tad bit bass-ier on occasion, that's about as far as my wishes go for different quality. Maybe it's different, maybe it's not, I can't tell. I'm listening to be entertained, not to analyze and report on my findings.

You want to paint this as an audiophile rant, but it isn't


Yes, yes it is.

Don't give me this crap like the clarity and detail of instruments doesn't matter


If I can hear it, and it sounds good, why would I complain? I'm none the wiser to whether or not it's been altered, seeing as I typically only keep one copy of a song on hand at any one time. It doesn't trouble me, nor do I care enough to get worked up about mastering of the music. I listen, and I either like or I don't like.

It all comes down to something very simple: Ignorance is bliss.
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