is abortion ok? - Armor Games Community

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dr_doughnut

72 posts

Nomad

Posted November 3, '12 1:19am UTC

Abortion is in simplest terms murder of a fetus. The fetus could have grown up to be something important. Any type of abortion is wrong. I hate in those commercials when those ladies complain about how much romney is ruining their lives by taking away their choice. It sickens me when people hate murderers but think it's okay for a doctor to kill a living being.

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EmperorPalpatine

9,439 posts

Jester

Posted November 3, '12 2:05am UTC

Any type of abortion is wrong.

How about in cases where the pregnancy will kill both the mother and the fetus?

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted November 3, '12 2:14am UTC

Let's do the same arguments again...

Abortion is in simplest terms murder of a fetus.

No it doesn't fit the definition of murder. Murder is the killing of a person with malice aforethought.
While the fetus s comprised of human cells it hasn't developed to the point of personhood, thus not a person. It's not a person as it hasn't yet developed brain activity and is incapable of being self sustaining if removed from the mother.

The fetus could have grown up to be something important.

It would just as easily and far more likely to be someone horrible or useless in the world.

Any type of abortion is wrong.

Even one's that occur naturally? one's where it would have cost both the child and mother their life if allow to be carried to term? I could go on.

I hate in those commercials when those ladies complain about how much romney is ruining their lives by taking away their choice.

We do have to take into account the rights of the mother. It is their body after all. Would you find I acceptable for someone to begin to feed off the nutrients of your body without your consent?

It sickens me when people hate murderers but think it's okay for a doctor to kill a living being.

It's two completely different situations. in the case of the murderer we have a fully developed conscious being. With the abortion it's stopping the process of becoming a person before that point is reached.

I would suggest you read over some of the pages on this thread.

Let's do the same arguments again...\r\n\r\n[quote]Abortion is in simplest terms murder of a fetus.[/quote]\r\n\r\nNo it doesn't fit the definition of murder. Murder is the killing of a person with malice aforethought. \r\nWhile the fetus s comprised of human cells it hasn't developed to the point of personhood, thus not a person. It's not a person as it hasn't yet developed brain activity and is incapable of being self sustaining if removed from the mother.\r\n\r\n[quote]\r\nThe fetus could have grown up to be something important.[/quote] \r\n\r\nIt would just as easily and far more likely to be someone horrible or useless in the world.\r\n\r\n[quote]Any type of abortion is wrong.[/quote]\r\n\r\nEven one's that occur naturally? one's where it would have cost both the child and mother their life if allow to be carried to term? I could go on.\r\n\r\n[quote] I hate in those commercials when those ladies complain about how much romney is ruining their lives by taking away their choice.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWe do have to take into account the rights of the mother. It is their body after all. Would you find I acceptable for someone to begin to feed off the nutrients of your body without your consent? \r\n\r\n[quote] It sickens me when people hate murderers but think it's okay for a doctor to kill a living being.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt's two completely different situations. in the case of the murderer we have a fully developed conscious being. With the abortion it's stopping the process of becoming a person before that point is reached.\r\n\r\nI would suggest you read over some of the pages on this thread.

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mysteriousmexican666

315 posts

Nomad

Posted November 3, '12 6:03am UTC

We do have to take into account the rights of the mother. It is their body after all. Would you find I acceptable for someone to begin to feed off the nutrients of your body without your consent?

You should probably reword that if you're for abortion. 'Something' would probably fit better.

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pangtongshu

9,808 posts

Jester

Posted November 3, '12 6:37am UTC

I would suggest you read over some of the pages on this thread.

Poor Mage has to make the same argument once again =/ why can't people take the time to read through what has been said

The reason I'm not putting in my 2 cents is because the debate has happened so many times by now. No one has really brought about a new argument...its the same "it is murder! That fetus could have been great!" argument

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GhostOfHorror

889 posts

Nomad

Posted November 3, '12 1:58pm UTC

Just in relation to abortion in Ireland.

Doctors in Ireland legally can't perform abortion, there is however abortion clinics in Ireland, so you can still get an appointment for one.

I personally know someone who had an abortion a couple of months back.
She's is 20 years old, just finished school and had down a year of travelling. She found out she was pregnant at 7 weeks, and was shocked; I suppose a general response.
The only person she told was her brothers, and her brother's girlfriend, (this being my sister)
My sister was also pregnant at the time, but didn't find out until later that week, funnily enough; she was 7 weeks too but I guess that's irrelevant.
Anyhow; she told her boyfriend she was pregnant and suggested she had an abortion because she didn't feel she would be able to mind it - since she said she wanted to go to college.
Her boyfriend more or less left her because he didn't want a baby at all, and didn't care what she did with it.
So she went off on a breakdown and took several drugs, cocaine, hash, you name it.
She went to an abortion consultant clinic of some sort within the next day, and had the appointment booked.
She had to go to Manchester for this to performed, for reasons I stated above.
She didn't tell her parents she was pregnant; let alone going to have an abortion and just said she was going to England for a few days, bare in mind she used her father's credit card to book this flight which is the only reason she told him about the whole scenario.
Her mother still doesn't know about it.

I don't really know my viewpoint on it; I don't think it was necessary for her to get an abortion; since my sister and her would've been due more or less the same time, and her mother would've been more than delighted to mind it; since she hasn't anything else to do.

Just in relation to abortion in Ireland.\r\n\r\nDoctors in Ireland legally can't perform abortion, there is however abortion clinics in Ireland, so you can still get an appointment for one.\r\n\r\nI personally know someone who had an abortion a couple of months back.\r\nShe's is 20 years old, just finished school and had down a year of travelling. She found out she was pregnant at 7 weeks, and was shocked; I suppose a general response.\r\nThe only person she told was her brothers, and her brother's girlfriend, (this being my sister)\r\nMy sister was also pregnant at the time, but didn't find out until later that week, funnily enough; she was 7 weeks too but I guess that's irrelevant.\r\nAnyhow; she told her boyfriend she was pregnant and suggested she had an abortion because she didn't feel she would be able to mind it - since she said she wanted to go to college.\r\nHer boyfriend more or less left her because he didn't want a baby at all, and didn't care what she did with it.\r\nSo she went off on a breakdown and took several drugs, cocaine, hash, you name it.\r\nShe went to an abortion consultant clinic of some sort within the next day, and had the appointment booked.\r\nShe had to go to Manchester for this to performed, for reasons I stated above.\r\nShe didn't tell her parents she was pregnant; let alone going to have an abortion and just said she was going to England for a few days, bare in mind she used her father's credit card to book this flight which is the only reason she told him about the whole scenario.\r\nHer mother still doesn't know about it.\r\n\r\nI don't really know my viewpoint on it; I don't think it was necessary for her to get an abortion; since my sister and her would've been due more or less the same time, and her mother would've been more than delighted to mind it; since she hasn't anything else to do.

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danielo

1,773 posts

Peasant

Posted November 3, '12 2:52pm UTC

And you think her/your sister {i lost you on that i got to say} family could rise the baby without lowering there lifr quality? Its a very very very expensive thing a baby, not to say all the care about it.

For a long time i had 5 dogs, a cat, a bunny and 2 guinna pigs. exept 3 dogs, all the other died from old age. And now we can travel more often, as there is no herd you need to take care off. The food is not so expensive as it used to be, feeding 5 dogs alone is make you have to buy dog food akmost every 2 weeks. Sure we can rise more, but, well, we dont want too.

You think that if your mother/the girl mother wanted a kid as she have "nothing to do", she woldnt "make" one by herself? and maybe she enjoy that "nothing to do"? she rised kids, now she can relaxe, as they grew up.

Later, when she will be ready for a baby, she can have as much kids as she want. but in this period on her life, it not the wisest thing to do.

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HahiHa

8,256 posts

Regent

Posted November 3, '12 2:58pm UTC

It's not only minding the baby; she wants to go to college, now imagine her at the college and being pregnant. It's a long time and quite a hindrance, left alone what the others might think of her.

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MageGrayWolf

9,462 posts

Farmer

Posted November 3, '12 3:59pm UTC

You should probably reword that if you're for abortion. 'Something' would probably fit better.

That statement was intended to put the fetus in context to how the opposition views it.

It's not only minding the baby; she wants to go to college, now imagine her at the college and being pregnant. It's a long time and quite a hindrance, left alone what the others might think of her.

Not to mention the cost involved once the baby was born. college is expensive and babies are expensive. Together that some pretty hefty bills.

Waiting, she get's to go to college, increases her chances of getting a good job making her more financially secure, putting her in a better position to care of a child later on if she so desires. by waiting any child she has will likely be in a far better living condition.

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GhostOfHorror

889 posts

Nomad

Posted November 3, '12 4:26pm UTC

And you think her/your sister

Sister's boyfriend's sister, be easier to just say "sister's friend" but meh.

Its a very very very expensive thing a baby,

Her family aren't poor.

You think that if your mother/the girl mother wanted a kid as she have "nothing to do", she woldnt "make" one by herself?

Her and her husband are separated and she is also too old.
How I know the mother is okay with the idea of minding a child is her son is having a child and she is ecstatic about the idea of being involved in parenting again, especially since her father is on the verge of dying.

It's not only minding the baby; she wants to go to college, now imagine her at the college and being pregnant

That was what she was worried about most - if she had a child too young she felt that her life would be over before she had enough money to support a child without the aid of her parents.

by waiting any child she has will likely be in a far better living condition.

This was more or less the point she made.

[quote]And you think her/your sister [/quote]\r\nSister's boyfriend's sister, be easier to just say "sister's friend" but meh.\r\n\r\n[quote]Its a very very very expensive thing a baby,[/quote]\r\n\r\nHer family aren't poor. \r\n\r\n[quote]You think that if your mother/the girl mother wanted a kid as she have "nothing to do", she woldnt "make" one by herself?[/quote]\r\n\r\nHer and her husband are separated and she is also too old.\r\nHow I know the mother is okay with the idea of minding a child is her son is having a child and she is ecstatic about the idea of being involved in parenting again, especially since her father is on the verge of dying.\r\n\r\n[quote]It's not only minding the baby; she wants to go to college, now imagine her at the college and being pregnant[/quote]\r\n\r\nThat was what she was worried about most - if she had a child too young she felt that her life would be over before she had enough money to support a child without the aid of her parents.\r\n\r\n[quote]by waiting any child she has will likely be in a far better living condition.[/quote]\r\n\r\nThis was more or less the point she made.

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partydevil

5,129 posts

Jester

Posted November 3, '12 5:39pm UTC

so abortions gave her (or both, that part is confusing) her life back and gave a future babie a better start of life then this babie could have gotten.

i say +1 for abortion.

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GhostOfHorror

889 posts

Nomad

Posted November 3, '12 9:22pm UTC

More or less that is the summary of the story.

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Blkasp

1,304 posts

Nomad

Posted November 4, '12 1:41am UTC

Denying 2 Timothy 3:16? Why adhere to the bible if it's just the scribblings of men?

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

No I am not denying 2 Timothy 3:16. God-breathed, a synonym is God Inspired. Not God written, God inspired.
Why should we listen to these, (as you say) "scribblings" of men? Because they are God inspired. So God might give them an acute thought, in which somebody such as Luke will write down in his own personal way when compared to somebody such as Paul.

We don't have to use the bible to setle this question

No we don't but appartently somebody wishes to try and bring up attacks on the Bible at every chance.

The Psalms are songs written by poets such as King David, in which they vent their cries of complaints and praise, suffering and joys to God. Why are these Pslams in the Bible? So we know that King David, a great follower of God is just like us, he faces the same problems and temptations that we do just as all the other Psalmists and authors of the Bible.

[quote]Any type of abortion is wrong.

Even one's that occur naturally? one's where it would have cost both the child and mother their life if allow to be carried to term? I could go on.[/quote]
Just to keep this thread on track, we are talking about unnatural Abortions and not Miscarriages (sometimes called, "spontaneous abortion&quot right?

As noted many times through out egg and sperm have this. So are you advocating that women remain constantly pregnant? Because that's the only way to fulfill such a right.

Let me rephrase this, I believe that all living things that have the potential to become human beings (when left alone) should not be killed for convenience purposes (as in, I am going to have an abortion because it will delay my career opportunities).

No it's not. It's what that Bible says in it. Those are the passages with God saying to kill kids or killing kids.

My comment was a direct reference to what you were saying which is:

Now you might try to worm your way through this with bs apologetic claiming special pleading for God or how these were punishments for disobeying God. If you want to go down that road I can pull far to many verses to even list of situations where God says we are to kill someone.

Part of the curse of Disobeying God.

Whoops, looks like this "bs" is what you use in your earlier argument.
Effectively you say, "Look what happens when you disobey God as a punishment" yet you then say "you may try to get out of this with some bs by saying it's a punishment." You contradict yourself! You say something is"bs" yet you use it in your argument.

It would just as easily and far more likely to be someone horrible or useless in the world.

Yet it also has a chance to do something good. Everybody has a chance to contribute something good to the world which can be encouraged through an upbringing which tells the Child of good morals and characteristics, but if you kill this fetus. There is no chance at all.

.

so abortions gave her (or both, that part is confusing) her life back and gave a future babie a better start of life then this babie could have gotten.
i say +1 for abortion.

I would have rather seen the women put the baby up for the adoption. This way there is another human in the world (who might be happy that he/she did not get aborted and instead had a chance to live, but at least he/she had a chance).

[quote]Denying 2 Timothy 3:16? Why adhere to the bible if it's just the scribblings of men?[/quote]\r\n[quote]All Scripture is [b]God-breathed [/b]and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,[/quote]No I am not denying 2 Timothy 3:16. God-breathed, a synonym is God Inspired. Not God written, God inspired.\r\nWhy should we listen to these, (as you say) "scribblings" of men? Because they are God inspired. So God might give them an acute thought, in which somebody such as Luke will write down in his own personal way when compared to somebody such as Paul.\r\n\r\n[quote]We don't have to use the bible to setle this question[/quote]\r\nNo we don't but appartently somebody wishes to try and bring up attacks on the Bible at every chance. ;)\r\n\r\nThe Psalms are songs written by poets such as King David, in which they vent their cries of complaints and praise, suffering and joys to God. Why are these Pslams in the Bible? So we know that King David, a great follower of God is just like us, he faces the same problems and temptations that we do just as all the other Psalmists and authors of the Bible.\r\n\r\n[quote][quote]Any type of abortion is wrong.[/quote]\r\nEven one's that occur naturally? one's where it would have cost both the child and mother their life if allow to be carried to term? I could go on.[/quote]\r\nJust to keep this thread on track, we are talking about unnatural Abortions and not Miscarriages (sometimes called, "spontaneous abortion") right?\r\n\r\n[quote]As noted many times through out egg and sperm have this. So are you advocating that women remain constantly pregnant? Because that's the only way to fulfill such a right.[/quote]\r\nLet me rephrase this, I believe that all living things that have the potential to become human beings (when left alone) should not be killed for convenience purposes (as in, I am going to have an abortion because it will delay my career opportunities).\r\n\r\n[quote]No it's not. It's what that Bible says in it. Those are the passages with God saying to kill kids or killing kids.[/quote]\r\nMy comment was a direct reference to what you were saying which is:\r\n[quote]Now you might try to worm your way through this with bs apologetic claiming special pleading for God or how these were punishments for disobeying God. If you want to go down that road I can pull far to many verses to even list of situations where God says we are to kill someone.[/quote]\r\n[quote]Part of the curse of Disobeying God.[/quote]\r\nWhoops, looks like this "bs" is what you use in your earlier argument.\r\nEffectively you say, "Look what happens when you disobey God as a punishment" yet you then say "you may try to get out of this with some bs by saying it's a punishment." You contradict yourself! You say something is"bs" yet you use it in your argument.\r\n\r\n[quote]It would just as easily and far more likely to be someone horrible or useless in the world.[/quote]\r\nYet it also has a chance to do something good. Everybody has a chance to contribute something good to the world which can be encouraged through an upbringing which tells the Child of good morals and characteristics, but if you kill this fetus. There is no chance at all.\r\n\r\n.[quote]so abortions gave her (or both, that part is confusing)  her life back and gave a future babie a better start of life then this babie could have gotten.\r\ni say +1 for abortion.[/quote]\r\nI would have rather seen the women put the baby up for the adoption. This way there is another human in the world (who might be happy that he/she did not get aborted and instead had a chance to live, but at least he/she had a chance).

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HahiHa

8,256 posts

Regent

Posted November 4, '12 9:47am UTC

Just to keep this thread on track, we are talking about unnatural Abortions and not Miscarriages (sometimes called, "spontaneous abortion&quot right?

True, but it might be of interest still to keep in mind that a big number of pregnancies don't end in birth, most pregnancies even end before the mother realizes anything.

Let me rephrase this, I believe that all living things that have the potential to become human beings (when left alone) should not be killed for convenience purposes (as in, I am going to have an abortion because it will delay my career opportunities).

I believe that we as a society attach too much importance on &quototential to become human". I could go out this night and **** a girl if I pleased to do so, thus potentially bringing a new baby into life. But I chose not to. The same way, I feel a mother has the right, up to a certain stage, to decide whether she wants a baby or not; even more so as she will be affected by it physically and psychically for the next months, and probably also after birth.

Yet it also has a chance to do something good. Everybody has a chance to contribute something good to the world which can be encouraged through an upbringing which tells the Child of good morals and characteristics, but if you kill this fetus. There is no chance at all.

I would have rather seen the women put the baby up for the adoption. This way there is another human in the world (who might be happy that he/she did not get aborted and instead had a chance to live, but at least he/she had a chance).

I'm sorry but "chance to be good/bad / happy/unhappy" etc. are poor arguments. This in and on itself should not be a reason to abort/not abort an embryo, unless there are specific reasons like the nearest adoption centers are all full/treat children horribly etc.

[quote]Just to keep this thread on track, we are talking about unnatural Abortions and not Miscarriages (sometimes called, "spontaneous abortion") right?[/quote]\r\nTrue, but it might be of interest still to keep in mind that a big number of pregnancies don't end in birth, most pregnancies even end before the mother realizes anything. \r\n\r\n[quote]Let me rephrase this, I believe that all living things that have the potential to become human beings (when left alone) should not be killed for convenience purposes (as in, I am going to have an abortion because it will delay my career opportunities).[/quote]\r\nI believe that we as a society attach too much importance on "potential to become human". I could go out this night and **** a girl if I pleased to do so, thus potentially bringing a new baby into life. But I chose not to. The same way, I feel a mother has the right, up to a certain stage, to decide whether she wants a baby or not; even more so as she will be affected by it physically and psychically for the next months, and probably also after birth. \r\n\r\n[quote]Yet it also has a chance to do something good. Everybody has a chance to contribute something good to the world which can be encouraged through an upbringing which tells the Child of good morals and characteristics, but if you kill this fetus. There is no chance at all.[/quote]\r\n[quote]I would have rather seen the women put the baby up for the adoption. This way there is another human in the world (who might be happy that he/she did not get aborted and instead had a chance to live, but at least he/she had a chance).[/quote]\r\nI'm sorry but "chance to be good/bad / happy/unhappy" etc. are poor arguments. This in and on itself should not be a reason to abort/not abort an embryo, unless there are specific reasons like the nearest adoption centers are all full/treat children horribly etc.

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Getoffmydangle

152 posts

Blacksmith

Posted November 4, '12 10:43am UTC

Blkasp:

This way there is another human in the world

Objectively, we are much closer to too-many people than not-enough... so I'm not sure how adding another person is a victory or a point for your argument.

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