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[dup]Arguments for God

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Posted Oct 16, '12 at 12:00pm

partydevil

partydevil

5,109 posts

So no, I do not say the Bible itself that's false, it's peoples interpretations that are.

he'd have probably make everything in a way that we could have NO way of proving, beyond any doubt, that he exists.

if he doesn't want us to know him then why did he make a book to decisive so many people?

i mean, a book that is proof for your existences. but written in a way that can't be interpreted in the right way.
if there was even the possibility of interpreting it the right way, then god failed to keep it's existent unknown.

it's contradicting or it's very mean of god to publish this book and make it the cause of many problems.

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 12:25pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,592 posts

So there is no need for the rest of the universe to be inhabitable. It also shows that the earth is the most important, that here aren't other beings out there that Jesus died for, that the earth is the center (so to speak) of everything.

Then why even make anything else?

And what happens if/when we do find something else?

Where did all this matter come from, how did that get there,

We don't know for sure yet. There's various theories about it out there.

If we *knew* there was a god, there'd be no room for faith - believing facts is obvious, disbelieving facts is foolishness. Thus if there is God, a creator, he'd have probably make everything in a way that we could have NO way of proving, beyond any doubt, that he exists.

...See, this is where I just facepalm. WHY would a god make it so that you can't prove it exists? Especially if he's going to be handing out dictates and punishments for  NOT believing in him, and if you're going to claim he's all loving, he's basically watching upwards of 60% of the population (at the very least) shoot themselves in the spiritual foot!

Why does religion exalt faith? Because it has no facts. Why does it have no facts? Because there aren't any. Pretty clear cut.

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 12:28pm

StDrake

StDrake

191 posts

I don't think the Bible is supposed to be a proof of Gods existence. It's more a set of values, guidelines for how to live a good life. With commentary to make it more understandable for the human mind...the ancient human mind at that and ways of thinking differ much now from what was then, hence some of the interpretation problems. Also note that it was written with human hands, human words, human understanding proper to the times it was written/spoken in.

As for accepting a claim without evidence being good or bad - I did not say either. Perhaps the matter of keeping faith as faith has a reflection in our freedom of thought. If we knew for sure that God, hell, heaven existed - would we act the same? Would a criminal perform crime if he KNEW for sure that he'd get caught and punushed? The mere certainty of His(sorry for the male form, it's just a matter of tradition and convenience) presence would be a kind of tyranny, slavery for the mind forcing it into certain action. And we are supposed to have free will..to help and to harm. Faith may guide us, but it has to be our independent decision.
The issue of Jesus vs the original sin that di not exist is a matter for its own topic (which does exist)

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 12:38pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,592 posts

I don't think the Bible is supposed to be a proof of Gods existence. It's more a set of values, guidelines for how to live a good life.

As according to God. The whole idea of following what's "right" because the creator of the universe said that's what is right kind of falls on its face when you take out the reason why those are absolute.

What is it if not supposed to be evidence? Communication from God, stories of how he did things, his son, prophecies from him, what he is going to do...it revolves around him. Sure, you can make the argument that it's supposed to be a moral guide...but it's a moral guide based on that God exists and has told us exactly what he wants.

Also note that it was written with human hands, human words, human understanding proper to the times it was written/spoken in.

All the more evidence against the existence of said god.

Perhaps the matter of keeping faith as faith has a reflection in our freedom of thought. If we knew for sure that God, hell, heaven existed - would we act the same?

I'm failing to see how knowing what does and does not get you eternally punished for sure is a bad thing. So I know if I kill I'll be tortured forever. I won't steal then. It's not like I -can't- I would just be stupid to. It would result in much of the world's problems ending if we 'knew.' You can't say God is loving by not telling us the rules to life and giving us reason to believe them, especially when you claim he has done the opposite by making it impossible for us to believe unless we're gullible (which he would have made us or not).

And we are supposed to have free will..to help and to harm. Faith may guide us, but it has to be our independent decision.

You're forgetting a few important things. If an all knowing, all powerful, omniscient god does exist, there is no such thing as free will. All our actions would be predetermined and not able to be changed. Being guided by faith is like closing your eyes and running in random directions when you actually have eyes...

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 12:58pm

partydevil

partydevil

5,109 posts

As for accepting a claim without evidence being good or bad - I did not say either. Perhaps the matter of keeping faith as faith has a reflection in our freedom of thought. If we knew for sure that God, hell, heaven existed - would we act the same? [b]Would a criminal perform crime if he KNEW for sure that he'd get caught and punushed? The mere certainty of His(sorry for the male form, it's just a matter of tradition and convenience) presence would be a kind of tyranny, slavery for the mind forcing it into certain action. And we are supposed to have free will..to help and to harm. Faith may guide us, but it has to be our independent decision.
The issue of Jesus vs the original sin that di not exist is a matter for its own topic (which does exist)[/b]

if we would have evidence of god, heaven, hell, etc.
then this criminal (sinners) wont do it because he knows he go to hell.
wouldn't it be better if we knew his existence and could obey him. (i don't see the free will when he is demanding things from us)
why would he hide himself and let bad things happen? so that he can withhold people to join him in heaven? aka, giving souls to satan.

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 1:00pm

partydevil

partydevil

5,109 posts

oops wrong button.

at these times i hate AG for not having a edit button.

===========================

As for accepting a claim without evidence being good or bad - I did not say either. Perhaps the matter of keeping faith as faith has a reflection in our freedom of thought. If we knew for sure that God, hell, heaven existed - would we act the same? Would a criminal perform crime if he KNEW for sure that he'd get caught and punushed? The mere certainty of His(sorry for the male form, it's just a matter of tradition and convenience) presence would be a kind of tyranny, slavery for the mind forcing it into certain action. And we are supposed to have free will..to help and to harm. Faith may guide us, but it has to be our independent decision.
The issue of Jesus vs the original sin that di not exist is a matter for its own topic (which does exist)

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 2:06pm

StDrake

StDrake

191 posts

All the more evidence against the existence of said god.

If working of natural laws is evidence then you're expecting (assuming he would at all) God to exist instead of them. If that's the case then perhaps it's better that your idea of God should not exist.

I'm failing to see how knowing what does and does not get you eternally punished for sure is a bad thing. So I know if I kill I'll be tortured forever.

We approach another issue that's not commonly spoken of - the eternality of punishment is also a simplification. Those 2k years ago hearing of hell and eternal torment from a priest was sufficiently close to the state of knowing. Science not yet that developped true was what the person that seemed to know better said. For the time it was the best anti-crime scareaway there was. Now however we know more and as a result need to know more even. Priesthood is still often a little stuck in the ice age, but I did hear a little on that anyway - basically the idea of Satan as the reason for sin is made up. That can be in a way proven by that Genesis is not a historical passage.
Satan was one of Gods "angels" who did not agree to bow to humanity as to master of the world and rebelled. Add to that another revelation - hell is not eternal. Eventually even those sinners will learn why their ways were wrong and to change them, and they will be admitted to heaven.
Funny thing, draconism seems to express that more clearly and sensibly - hell and heaven will be what its inhabitants will make it - throw in a bunch of ******** together into one place and they'll well make a hell out of nothing. Do the same with people who instinctively know to work together and avoid harming each other and you're close enough to the idea of heaven.

You're forgetting a few important things. If an all knowing, all powerful, omniscient god does exist, there is no such thing as free will. All our actions would be predetermined and not able to be changed

Your logic fails you - you base on omnipotence and omniscience, but seem to forget sentience of God. Where from the assumption that everything is predetermined? Sure - God can do anything, can know anything. It means he can also not want to make use of these abilities, and not predetermine every possible thing. The whole free will is in fact still a bad joke when we look how biology affects us, but well..next best thing ;P

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 2:20pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,592 posts

If working of natural laws is evidence then you're expecting (assuming he would at all) God to exist instead of them. If that's the case then perhaps it's better that your idea of God should not exist.

Existence of 'natural laws' though does not imply the existence of a designer. I'm not saying a god would be unable to exist alongside our outside of natural laws of it was all powerful...only that we as of yet have no evidence for such a thing.

We approach another issue that's not commonly spoken of

Well yes. This entire subject is where most arguments about a god lie. What it specifically wants, demands, and does. Different branches of different religions claim many different things.

The two common points are they all lack evidence, and they all believe in a god. 

Where from the assumption that everything is predetermined? Sure - God can do anything, can know anything. It means he can also not want to make use of these abilities, and not predetermine every possible thing.

He could, yes. But that doesn't leave out the fact that there would -be- an inevitable result. Whether he makes himself privy to that information doesn't change that.

The whole free will is in fact still a bad joke when we look how biology affects us, but well..next best thing ;P

True.

I've said this before, but here's the thing. If we're going with the idea that a god created the universe, that must mean it is more powerful than natural laws. Since it would have created them, it could violate them or ignore them. Now, when we can only operate by those natural laws, it would be impossible to either prove or disprove its existence. The only way which we would know is if it revealed itself to us.

Now, we have people claiming that God has done such through prophets and the holy books they wrote. By taking apart those words we -can- prove that, in those cases, God does not exist because in the books it claims to be infallible and we have found failings. This points towards even more reason to not believe the existence of such a being.

 

Posted Oct 16, '12 at 11:10pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

Perhaps the matter of keeping faith as faith has a reflection in our freedom of thought. If we knew for sure that God, hell, heaven existed - would we act the same?

This is like saying we shouldn't let people know there are security cameras in a store because otherwise they might not shoplift.
This whole argument of god wanting us to have free will is nothing more than a copout for lack of performance.

 

Posted Oct 17, '12 at 5:39am

nichodemus

nichodemus

12,169 posts

Knight

No matter if you are a Atheist or not, you would be a idiot to not except that there is a supreme creating energy referred to as God. You don't have to believe that there is an entity out there that watches you, I don't believe this myself. But to not think that there is a ultimate energy that can create life would be ignoramus.

There is no proof for this fancy ultimate energy. Its just a glittery argument that doesn't make much sense. There might or might not be God, but there is an ultimate energy? Isn't that the same thing? Preaching whilst asking others to close their eyes, and then bashing them for not accepting it whole?