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[necro]Nazi unit leader found in US

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Posted Jun 20, '13 at 2:14pm

KnightDeclan

KnightDeclan

487 posts

Well accident or not, he took 3 innocent people's lives. I can't talk about this with you if you're that inhumane.

 

Posted Jun 20, '13 at 2:23pm

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

9,688 posts

You are talking to me about war and actions taking during war. War is my thing. Expect to hear the harsh truths about war.

Innocent lives being taken is not a new concept, at all. It has been around for quite some time now.

 

Posted Jun 20, '13 at 3:14pm

Minotaur55

Minotaur55

1,315 posts

Knight

You didn't give justice to my point which is summed up as: Punishment is optional, acquittal is not. We can choose not to punish him, because after all, there's no point in doing so to achieve the traditional purpose of punishing a criminal, a) Set an example b) An eye for an eye, and c) To protect people. The Nazi have been tainted beyond salvation, the man is too old and infirm ed to commit more crime.


You mean I human being can be trialed, be guilty of a crime, and not have a sentence? I had no idea something like this was possibly. If this is the case, then I guess my views have changed. If he can be found guilty and not be punishment then that would be a honorable act of the law. But I'm not going to put my faith into that just yet.

Punishment is an option. Nazi criminals have often been found guilty, but not sent to jail, such as Maurice Papon, who was released from French prison after being deemed too old and sick to serve his 10-year sentence. The Lithuanian Nazi collaborator, Algimantas Dailide, was convicted in 2006 but didn't get a jail term since he was 'no longer a threat to society.'. If punishment no longer serves the purpose it was intended for, it is up for discussion whether to scrape it or not. BUT it isn't a question at all whether to judge this man not guilty if enough evidence is found. A crime is a crime.


I agree with all of that, but the French and United States are two different things. France may be a Democracy just like the U.S but the law is approach in two different ways, while fallowing under the same international principle. I do not think that the United States government is going to let this man loose even at his age.

Mercy is indeed a quality not often shown, as stated above, when it comes to dealing punishment; however, mercy should not be a factor in deeming whether a person is guilty of a crime or not.


All human relations are like this. A child can accidentally hurt someone, and while he or she did so by accident someone was hurt. I'm just saying that if he is in fact innocent and was blackmailed into this situation, or worse, he shouldn't be punished. The only reason I believed he should be acquitted was because I had no idea that committing a crime can go unpunished.

From here on out 'P' will be the prosecutor and 'N' will be the Nazi.
P: So you were the one that pulled the lever that gassed the Jews?
N: Yes sir
P: Why did you do it?
N: I was ordered to sir.
P: And did you have a choice in following these orders?
N: No sir.
P: And what would have happened if you had disobeyed these orders?
N: My family and I would have been killed sir. I was just protecting those I loved.


This is the exact point I am trying to make. He may have become a Nazi because his families safety was at stake. The Nazi's didn't give both the German or other European cultures a choice when the Nazi's decided to make a move. It's a common fact.

Even Wernher Von Braun didn't support the Nazi's use of his V-2 rockets. He said himself that the rockets flight was excellent yet it's use was all wrong. Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Hitler were the monsters of Nazism. What the Nazi soldiers and generals did was through sheer force. Some believed in the Aryan Race, yes, but others never wanted to hurt anybody.
 

Posted Jun 20, '13 at 3:16pm

partydevil

partydevil

5,119 posts

You word that as if they were killed on purpose.

they do kill innocents on purpose when they are around the target.
 

Posted Jun 20, '13 at 3:26pm

pangtongshu

pangtongshu

9,688 posts

they do kill innocents on purpose when they are around the target.


The innocents were not the ones targeted in this case, though
 

Posted Jun 20, '13 at 3:56pm

partydevil

partydevil

5,119 posts

not this case. but there is more happening.

 

Posted Jun 21, '13 at 8:21am

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,231 posts

Knight

You mean I human being can be trialed, be guilty of a crime, and not have a sentence? I had no idea something like this was possibly. If this is the case, then I guess my views have changed. If he can be found guilty and not be punishment then that would be a honorable act of the law. But I'm not going to put my faith into that just yet.


Yes you can, due to mitigating factors like old age. Has happened before as detailed in my previous post.

I agree with all of that, but the French and United States are two different things. France may be a Democracy just like the U.S but the law is approach in two different ways, while fallowing under the same international principle. I do not think that the United States government is going to let this man loose even at his age.


Whilst the laws of each country differs on punishment and whether the country places more emphasis on civil or common law, it would not be wholly unsafe to opine that the French and US system have more in common than not. Historically, the US has indeed been harsher on ex-Nazi leaders than France, but that doesn't derail the process in my opinion. Criminals are still criminals, and the basic message every ruling passed should establish is that; the law is not to be trifled with, and the authorities will take every possible measure against criminals.

All human relations are like this. A child can accidentally hurt someone, and while he or she did so by accident someone was hurt. I'm just saying that if he is in fact innocent and was blackmailed into this situation, or worse, he shouldn't be punished. The only reason I believed he should be acquitted was because I had no idea that committing a crime can go unpunished.


Every rests on the assumption that enough evidence can be found for him to be charged, if not, then by all means he should be ruled innocent.
 

Posted Jun 21, '13 at 8:21am

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,231 posts

Knight

Everything in the discussion* rests on the assumption that enough evidence can be found for him to be charged, if not, then by all means he should be ruled innocent.

 

Posted Jun 21, '13 at 10:21am

KnightDeclan

KnightDeclan

487 posts

Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Hitler were the monsters of Nazism.
Maybe to us, but they were very held up and respected men. The people of Germany loved them. People simply teach us that they were evil so that we wouldn't hold him up as an icon and start killing Jews. I'm not defending his actions, but I'm just saying that he did it for his race and country. People of Germany Cheered and supported him.

 

Posted Jun 21, '13 at 10:28am

nichodemus

nichodemus

13,231 posts

Knight

Maybe to us, but they were very held up and respected men. The people of Germany loved them. People simply teach us that they were evil so that we wouldn't hold him up as an icon and start killing Jews. I'm not defending his actions, but I'm just saying that he did it for his race and country. People of Germany Cheered and supported him.


The people of Germany loved him....partially. He was loved by large sections, yet it's worth noting that he never won more than 40% in an election. Thereafter, his popularity did rise, but only because of short term economic measures and the military buildup to bolster the former, whilst papering thinly over the cracks. What about the Jews, the gypsies, the physically and mentally disabled, the opposition members who were hunted down like they were animals? Are such significant groups to be ignored?

He did it for a race....that incongruous statement is in itself a show of Hitler's titanic evil, and an unwitting confirmation on your part of that malevolence. It is racism in its purest, most refined form, a blatant prejudice and bigotry that ended in blood and death. There is nothing redeeming of him in the grand plot of history.

We are taught that they are evil, so that no one will ever perpetuate such a genocide. That is not something that even needs to be considered for the merest moment of time, unless you condone massacre based on skin colour. You comment on the way Nazis are portrayed in our education system as if such unfavourable light cast upon them is abhorrent and inaccurate. That is disturbing on the highest scale.